This frequency of English localization issues is unacceptable

[MikkoAkure]

I skimmed through it, it really doesn't say that this is 'the only way to do it'. Do you have a time-code where they explicitly state this?


A faithful translation doesn't disrespect the source material by assuming that the audience wouldn't be as entertained.
Trying to dismiss people who take issue with this as 'pedants' who know full-well that what they're reading isn't what was initially written, or what was canon, or what was censored outright (as is the case with the Haurchefant debacle) is nothing but an insult.

People want to know that what they're reading is faithful to and in-line with what it actually is, because things like artistic and literary integrity ultimately are what ground the product in its entirety. Calling them 'artless' is just baseless.

Then read Koji's interview when he talks about localization:
https://we-are-vanadiel.finalfantasyxi.com/post/?id=632

For the most part, non-Japanese players will never see the original story that was written in Japanese; in other words, whether or not the Japanese version of the story is interesting is irrelevant to them. Their evaluation will be based on the translated version, so there’s no point in having a translation if it isn’t entertaining. Most importantly, the scenes that left an impression in the Japanese version have to be translated to impress the players who are playing the English version instead.
[...]
When I was first hired, my translations were very faithful to the original, so if someone were to translate my English back into Japanese, they would end up with original Japanese text. But when a translation has phrases that aren’t used in English, the players won’t understand what you’re trying to convey. Translators need to consider the intentions behind the words, or the emotions won’t be conveyed to the players at all.
[...]
I’d like to believe that our translations managed to preserve the message behind the stories, and that they’re just as dramatic and emotional as the original Japanese. When I was translating for FFXI, I tried to convey emotions and the true message as naturally as possible, even if I ended up ignoring the grammar or sentence structure of the original text to some extent. I’ve maintained that outlook on translation since then, even after moving on to other projects.

If the text not being 1-to-1 bothers you, nothing's stopping you from learning Japanese.

[Telkira]

Then read Koji's interview when he talks about localization:

Their evaluation will be based on the translated version, so there’s no point in having a translation if it isn’t entertaining.

See, this right here is exactly why I feel like FFXIV would have been a better game without his implementation of this philosophy, and is why so many discrepancies have been identified and called out with regard to the English script of this game.

He deliberately casts aside the role of a translator/localizer, which is to adapt the content of something in a foreign language as faithfully as possible, to becoming an outright revisionist (and censor), while robbing players of their right to determine for themselves what is valid and entertaining.
It represents a disheartening and annoying lack of faith in the source material's quality and ability to impress/entertain an audience, while insulting the player by assuming they would view it with the same lack of interest that he may have.

None of this would be an issue if they just gave players a second set of text to go off of which would exist in the form of a faithful translation. It's not his place to deviate so harshly from the original script with the intention of entertaining a Western audience.
Preserving what was initially intended for the Japanese audience would have left just as much of a favorable impression as the English one but with fewer issues.

I’d like to believe that our translations managed to preserve the message behind the stories, and that they’re just as dramatic and emotional as the original Japanese. When I was translating for FFXI, I tried to convey emotions and the true message as naturally as possible, even if I ended up ignoring the grammar or sentence structure of the original text to some extent. I’ve maintained that outlook on translation since then, even after moving on to other projects.

I think accuracy goes hand-in-hand with preserving things like emotion, tone, sentiment, etc. Liberties are best taken in situations where certain things literally will not translate at all, then the use of linguistic analogs and other devices can be justified by the plain and apparent context. This is literally translation 101, because you're not just preserving the communication of what's being said, but the utterance of who is saying it.
There are heaps of nuance and subjectivity to be felt/observed when that is maintained, regardless of what language is being spoken, and of course some (or a lot) of that nuance will be lost in translation, but that's not an excuse to substitute that nuance for what someone believes would be more entertaining just because they think it would be familiar to that audience. That feels like pandering, especially when there are mood and tonal discrepancies between what's being said/spoken and what's going on in the game world. It's palpable.

[OgruMogru]

It's not his place to deviate so harshly from the original script with the intention of entertaining a Western audience.

It is his place! He's literally paid to do it you pedantic, artless weeb lmaoooo

[Telkira]

It is his place! He's literally paid to do it you pedantic, artless weeb lmaoooo

He's not the arbiter of what Westerners would be entertained by, though, only what they would understand. This is where the role of a translator takes a back seat to that of a revisionist, which is where all of the criticisms arise.

Like I said, none of this would be an issue if they gave us an option to have just a faithful translation of the game's textual content in either the launcher or the system settings.

[Jojoya]

He deliberately casts aside the role of a translator/localizer, which is to adapt the content of something in a foreign language as faithfully as possible, to becoming an outright revisionist (and censor), while robbing players of their right to determine for themselves what is valid and entertaining.

Translation/interpretation is intended to be as faithful as possible to the original.

Localization is not ("local" being a key part of the word), and SE has chosen to use localization teams instead of translation teams. Localization will make changes when concepts either don't exist or aren't considered appropriate in the "local" culture for the language.

Yet I also am not aware of anything done by the localization team that has been outright revisionist with respect to the story. Do you have examples of the JP versus EN/FR/DE versions where what is happening was completely changed as opposed to different phrasing being used during dialog that players assume are meant to be clues toward future story events?

We also haven't been robbed of any right to decide what is valid and entertaining. If you're not being entertained by the EN version, you're free to enable one of the other language clients. It's even an opportunity to get to learn another language. There's a member of my Marilith FC that learned English primarily by playing WoW instead of taking a language course.

[Telkira]

Translation/interpretation is intended to be as faithful as possible to the original.

Localization is not ("local" being a key part of the word), and SE has chosen to use localization teams instead of translation teams. Localization will make changes when concepts either don't exist or aren't considered appropriate in the "local" culture for the language.

That post you're quoting was responding to an article where he served primarily as the translator for FFXI, where he was discussing his role and responsibilities in comparison to 'localization'. I see no reason why the game couldn't just have existed as a faithfully translated piece, where all parties work to create, and develop, one unified script, as opposed to adapting the original script and text with all the liberties they've taken.

Yet I also am not aware of anything done by the localization team that has been outright revisionist with respect to the story.

Yes, actually. The characterization of Haurchefant in non-JP scripts was completely censored and butchered because they felt like Western audiences wouldn't find his concept to be funny or entertaining (despite there being objectively nothing wrong with his canonical characterization).

They had to acknowledge that what they did was completely unacceptable after disgruntled and concerned members of the fanbase called them out. They even admitted that they "robbed the fanbase of experiencing a character" and that the way they went about implementing these changes was not in-line with their usual internal practices, meaning that they went over some people's heads to do this (or were lying and just trying to save face).

You can read about it here:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...sions-of-FFXIV

We also haven't been robbed of any right to decide what is valid and entertaining. If you're not being entertained by the EN version, you're free to enable one of the other language clients. It's even an opportunity to get to learn another language.

Yes, we have.
By taking the original script and butchering it in such a way where it deviates from it, under the impression that Western audiences wouldn't be entertained or immersed by a simple, faithful translation, they're essentially robbing players of their right to know what the actual, true vision is, but instead are fed a parody of what that initial vision was. It would be like omitting/cutting certain dialog options because the localizers felt like the original script would be too 'boring', despite the original intention of having it be that way by the writers was to help set overarching tone and mood.
As for learning another language? That's not an argument for addressing the poor quality or decisions inherent with their approach to making the game's content accessible to non-JP audiences.

[Jojoya]

snip

You're awfully salty because of the change to how one character is presented in trivial dialog.

Still waiting for your "outright revisionist" examples from the game story. The salacious side of Haurchefant's character had no bearing on the actual story so that's not a change to it. Now if he had been tumbling Ysayle on the sly in the JP version of the MSQ and that was removed from the EN version, that would be an example of outright revision of the story.

And no, you still haven't been robbed of the right. You are, after all, getting information about all these revisions from somewhere since you don't know JP to discover any revisions for yourself. You're still getting the chance to make your own decision.

That you think the localization is poor in quality because it's not an exact translation is your subjective opinion. Personally, I'm happy with the localization if it means I'm not getting crap like "all your base are belong to us" that would come from an exact translation. Some of the funnier bits from Josh Strife Hayes' "Worst MMO Ever" series comes from the games that opted for exact translations instead of localization.

[Telkira]

You're awfully salty because of the change to how one character is presented in trivial dialog.

Yes, I am, because it was outright censorship, plain and simple.
The LOC team saw what the actual creators of the game and its content had made and sought to 'correct' it against the better judgement and internal processes while creating a fundamentally worse experience for players that was also extremely dishonest and not representative of what the initial vision was. Rather than reach out to the proper parties or take the proper steps to discuss things or voice their concerns, they took it upon themselves to go over their heads and roll out a different character, one that was, arguably, far more unsettling than the comedic goofball that he originally was in his canon iteration.

Still waiting for your "outright revisionist" examples from the game story. The salacious side of Haurchefant's character had no bearing on the actual story so that's not a change to it. Now if he had been tumbling Ysayle on the sly in the JP version of the MSQ and that was removed from the EN version, that would be an example of outright revision of the story.

The OP cites some examples of dialog being completely changed, and there are plenty of others.
A personal example that I can cite is the dialog of the Dwarves from the NiER questline, whereby the underlying motivations and even personalities are completely changed in the EN language, with the JP version being much more succinct and straightforward.

And no, you still haven't been robbed of the right. You are, after all, getting information about all these revisions from somewhere since you don't know JP to discover any revisions for yourself. You're still getting the chance to make your own decision.

You're not making any sense. I'm arguing that Western audiences are being robbed of their right to know whether they would find the original Japanese content boring because it wasn't translated or even adapted, but outright filtered through the lens of a localization process that deviated egregiously from the source material. Entire dialog trees hit differently thanks to the changes in dialog and literation that they genuinely come across as parodies in many aspects, or were overloaded with so much fluff that the contempt felt for the source material is unignorable.

Some of the funnier bits from Josh Strife Hayes' "Worst MMO Ever" series comes from the games that opted for exact translations instead of localization.

Those were machine-translations, not proper, faithful translations.
His Warframe video made me not trust his reviews and opinions. He sang the praises of Warframe while complaining about literal non-issues and not critiquing the game for its actual flaws. (I actually play Warframe, and people who play also hated his review).