Proposal for inner release change

[fulminating]

You sound like you're describing ShB monk. Having to work around buffs that are slightly too short for what you want to do. During shadowbringers GNB felt significantly better because NM was long enough to fit everything needed in, come endwalker it seems that they realised they couldn't get away with giving two tanks nothing and so opted to implement this rush job. Hopefully they don't decide that the regular combo also needs a continuation-alike come 7.0.

Upheaval but mostly yes. The inner release changes meaning you can't accidentally move infuriate forward 36s, IR only applying to fell cleave/decimate means you don't have to worry about having to use tomahawk under it, IR giving direct crits, IR giving unlimited beast gauge, Onslaught and Upheaval being removed from the beast gauge, Overpower being changed to another stupid circle, Vengeance no longer interacting with IR, NF/BW/RI healing being a flat potency and Storm's Eye being extendable to 1m all contribute to making the job feel worse.

The difference between GNB and WAR is that the GNB changes seem like incompetence and the WAR ones seem like malice.

[ArianeEwah]

At 90 Warrior is currently the fifth most miserable job to play, and I'd like it to be better.

Then, I am curious, what are your top 4 for most miserable jobs? All 4 healers or is there SAM and SMN in between?

@OP: I share your urge to get WAR - and IR specially - away from its guaranteed direct crit interation. 5-7 GCDs per minute is without a doubt absurd and ludicrous. You would expect the dev team to rework WAR soon™ since they said that changing NIN raid buff from trick attack into 2 min mug was "because synergy", but WAR - and to some degree SAM, with the same patch mind you - don't benefit from litany, voice or chainstratagem. *eyeroll*

Your suggestion however bears the very same problems 4.0 WAR had - as others have already pointed out! Your opener starts rather weak (4 FC, 2 IC vs 6 FC, 2 IC later on), and can end in uneven gauge numbers. Missing e.g. one/three FC/decimate can occur in multiple situations - due to long duration, gauge generation variation or untargetable phases. This becomes more risky and unnecessary punishing by design, and not dependent on player skill.

Current WAR may not be perfect, but at least the last balance patch made it less klunky and more fluent than before.

[fulminating]

Whm, sge, smn and sch. I probably would include ast but I don’t play it enough to have an opinion.

If fell cleave cost 40 rather than 50 gauge, it would be more difficult to end on an ungainly number, but gauge generation would need rebalanced to compensate. Or the addition of something dps-neutral that allows the gauge to be fully emptied (either costing 5/10 or as much gauge as you currently have).

If anything the last balance patch just underscored how lacking the job has become. I wish I had the optimism to believe that it will be changed for the better anytime soon.

[Absurdity]

You sound like you're describing ShB monk. Having to work around buffs that are slightly too short for what you want to do. During shadowbringers GNB felt significantly better because NM was long enough to fit everything needed in

I was just as annoyed with the changes as a lot of other people, and simply refused to learn the new rotation until savage released. After playing it for the entire savage tier however I've come around to it, because not being able to do the exact same sequence of button presses every minute made it slightly more interesting once I got used to it. I now have to remember what my next NM window looks like and what I need to do to prepare for it, since it changes ever so slightly every minute.


The fact that Continuation is only 5 yalms and makes it impossible to reposition bosses however is still nonsense.

If anything the last balance patch just underscored how lacking the job has become. I wish I had the optimism to believe that it will be changed for the better anytime soon.

It has steadily been on this path since the rework in 4.2. So no, I'm not optimistic either.

[ArianeEwah]

Before the gauge cost of Onslaught and Upheaval got removed, I thought a fixed gauge cost reduction (e.g. of 20) would've been great. It doesn't has to be no cost nor half cost.
If the opener is too weak under these conditions, you could change it that the amount possible in the opener will also the only amount possible later on - by stack count consume during x duration.

e.g. IR would only buffs/lowers cost of *insert number here* beast gauge skills during 30s

Yet Inner Release is just a proportion of the bucket of what's wrong with WAR. Infuriate and - if we go deeper - the combo choices are both part of the issue. Infuriate - stating the obivious - because you gain another critDH skill. The combo choices because you're pretty much forced into using SE max. 1.5 times/min, and the rest is SP and FC ad nauseam, but there is no option to pool gauge with effiency in mind, and is thus 'braindead'. Another combo choice (e.g. butchers block finisher) even if it ends up being niche, would grant more options for optimation... well, ANY option at all actually.

Anyway, when I wrote "you would except the dev team to change WAR" I actually meant "the dev should change WAR" because of their own reasoning, but I don't expect it actually. NIN was/is probably THE best job for raid synergy, but had its raid buff changed for more... synergy. While at the same time, SAM loses its place as preferred dance partner and has worse syngery with 2-3 jobs now (DRG, SCH, DNC only as dance partner), and WAR. STILL. has. NO. synergy. with 3-4 jobs! (DRG, BRD, SCH, 'DNC as dance partner')

In terms of raid/group synergy WAR is the WORST. designed. job. in. the. game!

The fact that Continuation is only 5 yalms[...]

It's 3 yalms like any other melee action, just saying. I agree with you, and the fact that iaijatsu got buffed to 6 yalms shortly after EW launch makes continuations' current state even more absurd.

It has steadily been on this path since the rework in 4.2. So no, I'm not optimistic either.

Me neither. Imho ShB was the worst that could happen to all job (re-)designs, while EW embraces and continues ShB legacy.

[Absurdity]

It's 3 yalms like any other melee action, just saying. I agree with you, and the fact that iaijatsu got buffed to 6 yalms shortly after EW launch makes continuations' current state even more absurd.

My bad, for some reason I remembered 5 yalms being the standard melee range on everything and didn't double check it.

[Lyth]

If I understand this correctly, I think the main point of this thread is about resource management. The idea being that you would build up resources over a 60/120 second period and then offload them against a burst window buff, rather than just activating a buff that makes things free. It's a nice concept, and it can line up very naturally if the job's resource generation rate is specifically designed for it.

I think the major limitation with a lot of these discussions is that most players are primarily interested in what will make them the most powerful for the least amount of effort, setting aside the usual 'job complexity' humblebragging that you see on the forums and reddit. Patch 4.2's Unga Bunga was something that players specifically demanded. 'Gauge management on WAR is too complex, Crit/DH RNG prevents players from getting their Rank 1 run.' I even remember the cross-posted article which popularized the idea, an interview with a certain streamer in a now defunct magazine. So if your end goal is to get the community to buy in to the concept, you'll have to convince them that introducing a little extra bit of resource management for a similar reward is actually going to be more fun in the long run.

[Absurdity]

Patch 4.2's Unga Bunga was something that players specifically demanded. 'Gauge management on WAR is too complex, Crit/DH RNG prevents players from getting their Rank 1 run.' I even remember the cross-posted article which popularized the idea, an interview with a certain streamer in a now defunct magazine. So if your end goal is to get the community to buy in to the concept, you'll have to convince them that introducing a little extra bit of resource management for a similar reward is actually going to be more fun in the long run.

4.0/4.1 warrior's gauge management was too complex, atleast for the gain you got from playing it perfectly. Playing what was essentially ShB SMN but with the added hurdle of it being a melee, executing a 2 minute rotation without any mistakes while also having to deal with aggro management (Neo Exdeath's aggro reset sends it's regards) to deal as much damage as a PLD that just did 1-2-3 and pressed Holy Spirit 5 times was too much work for too little gain. But while 4.1 warrior was too complex they overcorrected too much into the complete opposite direction.

And even though I called patch 4.2 the start of warrior's decline I would also argue that it wasn't "that bad" back then because warrior still had quite a few mechanics to manage that made it not completely unga bunga.

None of those mechanics were super complex and I'm not sure if I'd even want them back, but they were atleast something.


You are right however, a majority of people seem to be happy with current warrior, which is why I simply gave up on the job after 2 years of trying to get things changed.
Unlike healers I atleast had the option to switch to a tank that I found more engaging.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Honestly the real issue with Warrior (and by extension any job with skills that have a 100% crit / direct hit chance) is that they don't interact with jobs that grant buffs, which boost Critical Hit rate or Direct Hit rate. Which is also the reason why Warriors apart from their general tankiness are much less favoured than the other three tanks when it comes to actually building synergistic team comps. Warrior + Samurai in a comp with SCH DRG BRD will turn a lot of eyes due to the anti-synergy between the kits.

The solution to the problem is to think outside of the box - let any overcap of a stat essentially just increase damage.

Bonus Crit rate on action with 100% crit rate? Bonus damage.
Bonus DH rate on action with 100% DH rate? Bonus damage.
Overcap Skillspeed / Spellspeed on actions with 1.5s recast time (that's cap for GCD actions)? Bonus damage.

Would solve every and all issues, delete anti-synergies due to well-meant consistency changes and would also not make speed stats on jobs with capped out GCD recast (i.e. Heatblast from MCH or Enshroud weaponskills from RPR) into dead stats.

While at it, merge skillspeed / spellspeed already so PLD, DRK, RPR and RDM can stop cringing at their kits having Weaponskills and Spells.

[Colt47]

Ugh, yeah the warrior is the one tank where you have to meld completely different from other tanks to optimize it and it gains little from direct hit boosts due to having so many periods where it just crits all the time. If they did an overcap damage bonus it would probably make the job even harder to balance than it is since the 100% on crit and DH is a cap to prevent those stats from going over a baseline. Would be funny though if they tried out inner release granting a ton of Tenacity just to rattle the chains on that ghost of a statistic.