Action condensing options

[Kolsykol]

I'd rather not have more 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 in the game plz.

Seems likely that will be the next argument.

Fact of the matter is 1-2-3 is much more complex than 1-1-1. Even if people with.... a certain amount of brain capacity don't think that's the case. It's the whole "rub your stomach and pat your head"; neither of those actions are difficult, but whenever doing them at the same time it becomes tougher than the sum of the tasks. 1-1-1 is the equivalent of "pat your head and your stomach" and 1-2-3 is "Pat your head and rub your stomach"

You're not wrong, altho some people will say that you are.
It's just objectively true that 1 2 3 is more complex and difficult than 1 1 1.
That doesn't mean it's a super huge difference, but pressing three different buttons is harder and more complex than pressing one button three times yeah...

It's just kind of a silly thing to try and argue against, it's pretty self-evident.

[RitsukoSonoda]

And what about jobs that aren't just 1-2-3 combo rotations... like most DPS? Or are you advocating removal of numerous other skills from jobs to dumb them down to only having to press 1-2-3 then turn it into 1-1-1?

[BrokentoothMarch]

Is it, though? It's an additional layer of execution, that while simple, has been a fundamental part of the 'feel' of this game for a long time. You could argue most mechanics in games are arbitrary.

An additional layer of execution being condensed to little more than "press next number" is hardly some intense thought.

An actual layer of execution would require more reactive responses. An enemy is casting X, however, if they are casting something else, Y is the better option. I must keep Z up now before the next phase, as I will not be able to reapply Z come that moment. There are extremely few, if any, moments like that in this game. It's pretty much avoid the scary orange bits or memorize the difference between a regular attack or a lateral attack while consistently pressing 1-2-3. The combat in GW2 for example, is extremely impactful if at the price of extremely little button variety. The compensation comes from the enemy designs. However, XIV suffers from having the penalty of such little buttons as GW2 while claiming button bloat as complexity while, well, we do little else than damage go up.

Naturally it wasn't always this way even in XIV. The game back then had far more emphasis on DoTs and status effects, with even some of the earlier heal quests putting an emphasis on your ability to use Sleep to deaggro, to say nothing of the reactive nature, as I mentioned just now, of things like Cleric Stance. Was Cleric Stance perfect? Furthest thing from, but it was on the right path, I believe. However, the devs have continuously shown that instead of refinement or expansion, they'd rather cut the whole thing off for the sake of more streamlining. They claim it as accessibility, but I doubt even that excuse. I truly think that we're seeing more and more days where the game gets reduced developer attention. By homogenizing and making many a button less impactful, it makes streamlining balancing far easier due to the condensing of the buttons and their effects.

This is why I often say this game is complex in name only. Aside from many a button, there's not much behind it. And, again, there are some buttons that simply have no business not being collapsible. I once again bring up Ikushoten and Ogi Namikiri, which are buttons that are intrinsically tied (You literally cannot cast Namikiri without Ikushoten) yet are two different buttons. This is hardly complex, but instead just tedium pretending to be complexity.

Insipidness 1

Insipidness 2

Both of you can cope about how it's more complex to press a button with the label 2 over it rather than 1 all you want, but it doesn't make things any more deep. If you truly are going to tell me that complexity is something we were all taught in pre-school, then what a pathetic bar to pass and I have no need to discuss with either of you. Cute callback to my comment on brain capacity, Leon, but it falls short when your point is "haha 123 hard 111 no hard haha".

Also, Kol, that mask looks like garbage. You look better without it. Though I suppose about as much an improvement as 1-2-3 is over 1-1-1.

[LittleImp]

An additional layer of execution being condensed to little more than "press next number" is hardly some intense thought.

An actual layer of execution would require more reactive responses. An enemy is casting X, however, if they are casting something else, Y is the better option. I must keep Z up now before the next phase, as I will not be able to reapply Z come that moment. There are extremely few, if any, moments like that in this game.

Execution isn't inherently tied to any kind of thought process. In Rythm games, high-level play typically revolves around memorizing and repeating a scripted map of inputs. Combos are just a convolution to provide some variety and depth to filler inputs, while the 'thinking' happens in more manageable intervals determined by your overall rotation and cooldowns. Homogenization is definitely a problem in this respect, but giving jobs even less buttons to press doesn't help anything. Condensing combos isn't going to prompt the devs to add complexity in their place.

This is why I often say this game is complex in name only. Aside from many a button, there's not much behind it. And, again, there are some buttons that simply have no business not being collapsible. I once again bring up Ikushoten and Ogi Namikiri, which are buttons that are intrinsically tied (You literally cannot cast Namikiri without Ikushoten) yet are two different buttons. This is hardly complex, but instead just tedium pretending to be complexity.

I have to side with an earlier poster; I don't really think it's reasonable to comment on a games complexity when you don't actually do the offered content that fully engages the games mechanics. I think there is a reasonable argument to be made that more of the games content should necessitate jobs to actually interact with their toolkit in a meaningful way.

Both of you can cope about how it's more complex to press a button with the label 2 over it rather than 1 all you want, but it doesn't make things any more deep. If you truly are going to tell me that complexity is something we were all taught in pre-school, then what a pathetic bar to pass and I have no need to discuss with either of you. .

Ok, with all of what you've just said taken into account;

Can you explain why you yourself frequently fail to complete combos during combat encounters? Is it just personal choice not to interact with the combo system or something?

[LeonKeyh]

lol

You're arguing "because there is something that can be done that is more complex that means that this thing isn't more complex" which is a stupid, pedantic argument. Nobody said "1-2-3" is "hard" and nobody said "1-1-1" is "not hard."

The argument is that 1-2-3 is harder than 1-1-1, and significantly more than you're giving it credit for. But, I'd imagine that's difficult for someone with your brain capacity to understand I suppose. There's definitely no difference between DPSing as a healer and DPSing as any other job. Nope nope nope. Healers don't complain about pressing 1 button 70%-90% of a fight, nope nope nope. Summoner being reduced to 2 buttons for a majority of their rotation has been widely accepted as a great idea.

I honestly wish that I lived in whatever world you guys are in.

lol

Great response. Your intelligence and command of the English language is staggering. I don't know how I didn't see it your way.



You guys want to argue your points, use that brain capacity to do so.

[Lauront]

They are solely talking about abilities that have chained combos, and these inherently end up taking up more space. Try any melee dps or tank in PVP mode and you will see what they mean. Again, the OP put this forward as an optional thing. I would not use it. Many wouldn't. But it'd be nice as an option for those complaining about lack of button space etc. like Rowde above. With that said, I also like the suggestion Leon had about an AOE type stance. Not that it need be mutually exclusive, but there's non-combo using jobs which also utilise a lot of button space, so that would be beneficial there. Their design is just not very economical in some cases, where it could be.

[RitsukoSonoda]

They are solely talking about abilities that have chained combos, and these inherently end up taking up more space. Try any melee dps or tank in PVP mode and you will see what they mean. Again, the OP put this forward as an optional thing. I would not use it. Many wouldn't. But it'd be nice as an option for those complaining about lack of button space etc. like Rowde above. With that said, I also like the suggestion Leon had about an AOE type stance. Not that it need be mutually exclusive, but there's non-combo using jobs which also utilise a lot of button space, so that would be beneficial there. Their design is just not very economical in some cases, where it could be.

So take DRG as an example. They have 1-2-3-4-5 then also 1-6-7-5-4
SAM 1-2-3, 1-4-5, 1-6
I don't even want to look at MNK atm...
I'm literally just looking at basic combo chain skills.
However ranged physical dps don't have a 1-2-3 combo because their basic weapon skill abilities are pretty much a process of pressing 1 until a proc happens that highlights 2 and 3.
Ranged magical DPS don't really have a 1-2-3 combo either as they're more about skill synergies and resource mechanics.

[Deveryn]

They are solely talking about abilities that have chained combos, and these inherently end up taking up more space. Try any melee dps or tank in PVP mode and you will see what they mean. Again, the OP put this forward as an optional thing. I would not use it. Many wouldn't. But it'd be nice as an option for those complaining about lack of button space etc. like Rowde above. With that said, I also like the suggestion Leon had about an AOE type stance. Not that it need be mutually exclusive, but there's non-combo using jobs which also utilise a lot of button space, so that would be beneficial there. Their design is just not very economical in some cases, where it could be.

Achieving an AOE stance for the purpose of saving button space is as simple as putting said buttons on a new row. Just flip back and forth as needed.

[Deveryn]

The layering is great for some classes, but not others. It made a lot of sense for summoner, but it wouldn't make sense for something like samurai. What we have right now is likely to stay as it is.

Melees certainly aren't likely to be condensed as most have skills branching off. The most they might do is stack up the AOE combos to save space.

[SenorPatty]

Man, all this extreme focus on skills when the real glory is in the saved space and keeping hotbars tighter and neater.