Yoshida and new Jobs; no more returning FF ones?

[Renathras]

I'm a bit confused what Yoshi P means by needing to come up with completely new Jobs for FFXIV. I understand (I think) what he's trying to say. That FFXIV has a somewhat rigid Trinity system, which means some Jobs don't fit neatly into it. For example, a "true" RDM would have a melee combo, be able to cast half of the White Mage spells and half of the Black Mage spells, but due to FFXIV's more rigid system, it basically gets Vercure and Verraise from White Mage and the rest are direct damage variants of Black Mage spells (yes, I know that Verstone/aero/holy are thrown in there, but other than Verstone, they don't function like WHM's Aero/Dia or Holy spells, or really even its Stone/Glare spells, and Jolt, Verfire, and Verthunder honestly seem more like the old-school 2D FF game Black Mage spells)

So the argument goes something to the effect of "If we add traditional Jobs, they either won't fit well with FFXIV's combat system and/or they will feel too much like existing Jobs and/or if we make them fit it will frustrate long-time fans of the Jobs."

I get that at least some of this comes from the VERY vocal complainers about BLU early on (and somewhat ever since then) who wouldn't accept it for what it was (which is why we'll probably never get any other off-the-wall Limited Jobs in the future) - a "this is why we can't have nice things" situation - but at the same time, I don't believe this overall feeling is...accurate.

[Renathras]

Here's just one example off the top of my head:

Chemist could be added with a magic/caster gun (SEE: Outlaw Star - this wouldn't step on MCH's toes anymore than GNB does), with "spells" named after potions (Cure 1, Cure 2, and Medica equivalents would be Potion, Hi-Potion, and Mega-Potion - the AOE one in normal FF games), and it could have a "Mix" mechanic (often associated with the traditional Chemist class) that could work like NIN Mudras and be its "3 times a minute" ability like how the others have Lilies, Draw, Aetherflow, and Addersgall abilities. Instead of a DoT like the other healers, give it a 1-2-3 simple combo and maybe an oGCD attack to weave like MCH (without all the OTHER DPS buttons) and an AOE like Scattershot.

Bam! I've just made the traditional healer Job of Chemist circa FFTactics into a FFXIV playable class while keeping entirely true to the existing Job fantasy.

It would also feel different to play and look different to play aesthetically than the other healers. It would be a healer that isn't "magic" based (all 4 healers in the game right now use magic - yes, even SGE) and its combat play would be a bit more like MCH and unlike the other four "DoT then spam + occasional other damage CD button" system the other healers use.

The Mix mechanic wouldn't be like any of the existing healers, either, and would allow them to add abilities without inflating button bloat for the Job. With 1, 2, and 3 button combinations (like Mudras), and if the order DOES matter (e.g. 1,2,3 is different than 2,1,3, unlike NIN) and we allow duplicates, like 3+3+3, we could have 39 possible abilities taking only 4 hotbar slots. But that's just POTENTIAL; I get that'd be a lot of memorization. We could just keep it at a more manageable 6-9.

The point is, a system like that allows great hotbar economy (like how Eukrasia does) while also being distinct from anything any other healer uses. And no one would have an issue that a gun using healer that plays VAGUELY like MCH is "the same" as NIN, since all the other differences (being ranged and...a healer...) would make it clearly distinct from NIN. Note that this is hardly the only way to make Chemist as a healer that works in FFXIV's system (or Mix, for that matter), but in less than five minutes, there's a healer that would be unique vs the others, have its own Job mechanic and feel, yet still jive with the existing fantasy of the traditional Job by the same name (FFT Chemists used Elemental Guns once you had access to those and ranged application of potions [by which I mean chucking them at people], which a Caster gun would encapsulate well)

[Renathras]

So yeah, I don't get this "We can't add it without it not feeling like the Job people want and/or feeling the same as other Jobs". I just spent maybe 5 minutes spitballing and made a new Job that plays like no existing Job, wouldn't feel samey, and yet would be completely in line with the traditional views/class fantasy of the Job.


.

Another example would be Green Mage or Mystic (FFTactics) or Saboteur (FF13). A BIT more iffy since Green Mage/Saboteur is usually a debuffer, but of all FF Jobs, Green Mage is the one that really screams "DoT Mage", weakening and whittling away your enemy's strength.

Though outright enfeebling bosses may be a bit more complicated (though things like Addle/Feint and Tank Reprisal: Exist), and I know the Devs seem to not like DoTs (yet...slap them on almost every Job in the game and ALL healers... <_<), but if you take the old SMN/SCH abilities and actually built a class around them, it would make for a compelling Job that people wouldn't have any issue with going by the name of Green Mage. It would still follow the general vein/feeling of a Green Mage enfeebling his enemies. That is, take SB era SMN/SCH, remove Bahamut, Dreadwyrm Trance, and Carbuncle/Egis, and instead focus more in DoT gameplay and interactions.

Bio, Bio 2, Miasma, Miasma 2, maybe add a Poison line of spells; Fester-like abilities that deal damage based on number of DoTs on the target, and even their potencies (if you want to play around with snapshooting and the 2 minute burst window), Bane to spread them, Shadow Flare to add additional damage in an area and possibly do something like increase DoT damage and so on. Its Poison (or Bio...or Misasma, whichever) line could even have interesting interactions such as "deals up front damage based on the inverse of the time left on the previous spell" (e.g. the closer to the DoT falling off, the more damage it does, but if you let the prior debuff fall off, you lose out on the bonus damage)

Basically, make a Job built AROUND DoTs, not with DoTs as an afterthought that (WAAAAAY back in ARR) was kind of tacked onto the Job since, let's face it, ARR SMN didn't have a lot of buttons to push when its Enkindle and the like were on CD.

[Renathras]

Another Job that COULD be added as a DPS in Caster in this same vein would be Time Mage. If you want to fit it into FFXIV, it would require a bit of massaging, but not all that much. Since having Haste/Slow is a bit more iffy in FFXIV, lean into being a mage that really bends time. Allow it to do things like copy or stock a spell for quick use later as an oGCD (bigger burst), give it some DoTs akin to the Old Age spell that can be thought of as slowly sapping the enemy's health. And since Time Mage is really Time-Space Mage (thank you, Albert Einstein), Comet (distinct from Meteor, thank you FF7), and Gravity spells can round out its kit. And its haste spells can be specific to it (so they don't throw off other Job's Spell/Skillspeed) for things like faster cast times or things like AST's Lightspeed.

There we have yet a third Job that still fits mostly in its original archetype while also fitting into FFXIV's combat system.

.

We could, of course, go on, but...I guess I'm just not seeing what Yoshida means here, so maybe I'm just misunderstanding it somehow...? Maybe it was a "lost in translation" thing?

[MilkieTea]

If you edit your first post you can get around the 3000 character limit without posting multiple posts ^-^

[Renathras]

If you edit your first post you can get around the 3000 character limit without posting multiple posts ^-^

Oh.

That's...really nice to know! Thank you!

[MilkieTea]

Oh.

That's...really nice to know! Thank you!

No problem. I know it must be tedious to have to post multiple posts just to get your point across ahah.

[Picker]

As a blm I would welcome a time mage reducing my gcd during raid buffs, but that’s kinda what Astro used to do

[Kisshu]

As a blm I would welcome a time mage reducing my gcd during raid buffs, but that’s kinda what Astro used to do

Time Mage as a support caster could be an interesting concept.

Having a DoT, then interact with it with Time Acceleration, making the DoT do more dmg per tick, but for a shorter duration.

Haste would increate auto-attack speed for melee jobs, while lowering casting time for casters.

Being able to store spells into a slot that then converts it into an ability. Basicly would let you spend a GCD to pre-cast a spell and then later use it as an oGCD.

Stasis would be a very long cooldown skill, when using it on a party member their next GCD will not "eat the proc". So using it on a BLM would let them fire off an extra Xeno just before they use it, Ogi Namikiri on SAM, Phantom Rush on MNK and so on. Very strong skill, but would need to coordinate when to use it for optimal usage.