Glamour Question

[Gemina]

I suspect most players would support leaving job Artifact gear unique to the job.

But there's very little job gear in the game. Most of the gear is role gear and that is still locked.

Here's a quiz for you if you're so insistent that role gear should be limited to roles because they help to define the role appearance. Without looking at the image address, tell us what role is allowed to wear this piece of gear:

A lot of gear remains locked to save time. It has nothing to do with retaining identity, and that shouldn't need to be spelled out. Unfortunately, it enters the echo chamber, and when it gets repeated enough, people just go with it.

They place restrictions on the gear so they don't have to program the numbers for every role, for every piece of gear in the game. That would be a freakin nightmare. However, they also don't ever release the restrictions on the gear. And because of the limitations of the glamour system, you still can't wear restricted gear on a job or class that does not meet the requirements long after its release.

Just releasing the restrictions isn't a switch that can be flipped. It is actually way easier for them to release a new set without the restrictions than it is to remove the restrictions on an existing set. The new gear in the Aglaia raids is a perfect example of restricted gear that drives players just completely batty. They REALLY want to mix and match pieces like these.

It gets messy real quick though. You take the tank set, and also make it work for healing, scouting, striking, maiming, aiming, casting. Now you grab the healing set, and make it work for tanking, scouting, striking, maiming, aiming, casting. Then you grab the scouting set.....

See where I am going with that? You're increasing the workload seven fold, with the same amount of resources. No go my friend. No go.

[Punslinger]

What players like the one you quoted are pointing out, is that they would prefer for those lines to not be blurred further. Can you comprehend that?

Can you comprehend that existing gear design picks up those lines and plays jump-rope with them? (Have you ever not automatically defended the status quo in any discussion in this game?)

Not just glamour gear, either. Caster and healer gear are usually just recolors of each other in any given dungeon/raid/tome set. Fending/Maiming is another frequent pairing, as is Striking/Scouting. And for Crystarium gear, Striking and Healing shared a gear model. "Job Identity" doesn't mean much when gear models are routinely shared across roles.

How does it hurt your enjoyment of the game if somebody else is able to glam armor onto their caster/healer? How, when it comes to cosmetics, can more options ever be a bad thing?

A lot of gear remains locked to save time. It has nothing to do with retaining identity, and that shouldn't need to be spelled out. Unfortunately, it enters the echo chamber, and when it gets repeated enough, people just go with it.

They place restrictions on the gear so they don't have to program the numbers for every role, for every piece of gear in the game. That would be a freakin nightmare.

First, YoshiderP is on the record explicitly saying that "job identity" is the reason he doesn't want to ease glamour restrictions.

As for the rest...tell me you aren't a programmer without saying, "I'm not a programmer."

Adding restrictions is what requires additional code. It would be simpler to just have the glamour process not bother to check equippability at all. Enforcing the existing restrictions means the game has to check your job and level against the gear requirements.

Removing most restrictions would not require "programming the numbers" for every role and piece of gear. (Even if it somehow did, it would take literally one line of SQL to remove restrictions on all gear.) It would require having one developer spend an hour wrapping the equippability check inside an if() block that checks if the gear is equippable by only one job. That catches weapons and AF gear (because all AF gear is equippable by only one job), and passes everything else through. (The actual coding would take 5-10 minutes. The rest of the hour is for dev testing and code reviews.)

[Flaws]

What an original argument.

Have you ever told a player they "look the part", or receive likewise? Are you at least aware players get such compliments? What that is, is job/role identity, and the admiration of it.

Bikini tanks don't desire to look the part. There is nothing wrong with that, but they also don't look like a tank. The reason we are able to make that distinction is because of job/role identity. What players like the one you quoted are pointing out, is that they would prefer for those lines to not be blurred further. Can you comprehend that?

What's stopping you from looking the part if you only have more freedom to put on anything you want and not less? Who's to say that you can't look the part with some pieces from other roles's gear which would objectively make your glamour look even more the part than without having that freedom? I fail to understand why people still try to push this role/job identity idea as an excuse when it's been thrown out the window several expansions ago. I'll always give the Nier raids gear as a prime example. You mean to tell me that WAR shouldn't be allowed to put on the Striking chest piece from The Puppet's Bunker (the sleeveless coat) even though it would literally make more sense than the full sleeve one that tanks get? Thats just one of hundreds of examples.

The ONLY gear that should MAYBE be exempt from this is AF gear which was specifically designed for ONE job with actual JOB identity in mind. None of the other gear is designed with any specific job in mind and thats why newer jobs like GNB and DNC for example remain cucked because most of the previously existing gear for their role doesn't match that job aesthetic whatsoever, not even remotely. Other pieces from other jobs would fit way better but they can't put it on. You are literally preventing jobs from looking the part by having this restriction in the game and thats where the problem is for most of us.

[Gemina]

What's stopping you from looking the part if you only have more freedom to put on anything you want and not less? Who's to say that you can't look the part with some pieces from other roles's gear which would objectively make your glamour look even more the part than without having that freedom? I fail to understand why people still try to push this role/job identity idea as an excuse when it's been thrown out the window several expansions ago.

It's never been thrown out the window. Like ever. If it was thrown out the window, we wouldn't even be having this discussion now would we? What you mean to say is you want it thrown out the window. You believe that just because playful glamours are released, it defeats all purpose to continue to have restrictions on the glamour system. Players who are against lifting restrictions, or have an idea why they are in place have listed reasons from north to south. They cannot be faulted when those who want the restrictions to go away mulch their statements into reasonings based on identity to be easily ignored.

The ONLY gear that should MAYBE be exempt from this is AF gear which was specifically designed for ONE job with actual JOB identity in mind.

The dev team doesn't need to be told what gear should and shouldn't have restrictions. This is totally up to them, and they can place those restrictions for any reason they deem fit. Many of the players who are for the restrictions are glamour chasers as well. They can and do have overlapping limitations and frustrations. This doesn't change their views though because they know and understand that the devs don't ever place restrictions on gear to purposely grieve them and/or deliberately limit their glamour pool.

[Flaws]

It's never been thrown out the window. Like ever. If it was thrown out the window, we wouldn't even be having this discussion now would we? What you mean to say is you want it thrown out the window. You believe that just because playful glamours are released, it defeats all purpose to continue to have restrictions on the glamour system. Players who are against lifting restrictions, or have an idea why they are in place have listed reasons from north to south. They cannot be faulted when those who want the restrictions to go away mulch their statements into reasonings based on identity to be easily ignored.


The dev team doesn't need to be told what gear should and shouldn't have restrictions. This is totally up to them, and they can place those restrictions for any reason they deem fit. Many of the players who are for the restrictions are glamour chasers as well. They can and do have overlapping limitations and frustrations. This doesn't change their views though because they know and understand that the devs don't ever place restrictions on gear to purposely grieve them and/or deliberately limit their glamour pool.

You and I both know that's not true. There is no role identity when you have to design gear that would, for example, work on both PLD and GNB where both roles are tanks but they have vastly different aesthetics. Or MCH and DNC. It is simply impossible and they've proven it with how they've been designing gear. There are multiple examples of the devs violating their own rules of role restricted gear with both NPCs that wear a mix of gear from different roles + re-using gear from previous expansions but only slightly recolored for an entirely different job. There are no valid excuses. Unless you genuinely mean to tell me that slight coloration differences on the exact same gear model is what sets them apart for different jobs. Gear that is already dyeable most of the time anyway.

The devs of any game should always take player feedback into account first thing because thats how games evolve and become better. We don't want another WoW on our hands, do we? The vast majority of players here are against these restrictions and the devs should take note. If you don't believe me I suggest you look at the other thread about it made by Siddiax.

[Gemina]

You and I both know that's not true. There is no role identity when you have to design gear that would, for example, work on both PLD and GNB where both roles are tanks but they have vastly different aesthetics. Or MCH and DNC. It is simply impossible and they've proven it with how they've been designing gear. There are multiple examples of the devs violating their own rules of role restricted gear with both NPCs that wear a mix of gear from different roles + re-using gear from previous expansions but only slightly recolored for an entirely different job. There are no valid excuses. Unless you genuinely mean to tell me that slight coloration differences on the exact same gear model is what sets them apart for different jobs. Gear that is already dyeable most of the time anyway.

I don't know how many times I have to explain that none of this has anything to do with restrictions. I haven't used identity in my arguments once, yet you do exactly what I said in my last post, and throw everything in a blender so all you see and hear is job identity. Furthermore, when you're arguing that restrictions limit your options and then proceed to mention all the options you have, it kind of has the reverse effect if your intention, and just makes you sound entitled.

The devs of any game should always take player feedback into account first thing because thats how games evolve and become better. We don't want another WoW on our hands, do we? The vast majority of players here are against these restrictions and the devs should take note. If you don't believe me I suggest you look at the other thread about it made by Siddiax.

Good grief. Just because the dev team doesn't grant every single request doesn't mean they don't take player feedback into account. They've released restrictions on many items of gear, and just released Lyse's outfit and hairstyle that has been in very high demand. And this is one big reason why I wish they did not lift restrictions. It's like apologizing to a mob. You know all that gear you keep referring to that are just re-releases of previous sets but for different roles? They do that BECAUSE of player feedback.

I know it sucks to hear the truth when it goes against all your hopes and dreams of a restriction-free glamour system. You'll continue to think it's about identity retention though, and bikini tanks remove all reason to keep restrictions, so I don't really see much point continuing. Do you?

[Flaws]

I don't know how many times I have to explain that none of this has anything to do with restrictions. I haven't used identity in my arguments once, yet you do exactly what I said in my last post, and throw everything in a blender so all you see and hear is job identity. Furthermore, when you're arguing that restrictions limit your options and then proceed to mention all the options you have, it kind of has the reverse effect if your intention, and just makes you sound entitled.


Good grief. Just because the dev team doesn't grant every single request doesn't mean they don't take player feedback into account. They've released restrictions on many items of gear, and just released Lyse's outfit and hairstyle that has been in very high demand. And this is one big reason why I wish they did not lift restrictions. It's like apologizing to a mob. You know all that gear you keep referring to that are just re-releases of previous sets but for different roles? They do that BECAUSE of player feedback.

I know it sucks to hear the truth when it goes against all your hopes and dreams of a restriction-free glamour system. You'll continue to think it's about identity retention though, and bikini tanks remove all reason to keep restrictions, so I don't really see much point continuing. Do you?

Absolutely, I do. None of what you've said makes any sense. You clearly have no solid arguments against it. You literally talked about people getting compliments for looking the part originally which is clearly all about identity. Also, are you seriously going to say that having a few reused models for different jobs is the same as having no restrictions? Where are you even going with this? "All the options you have" like thats anywhere near what all of us are asking for. And no they absolutely don't do that because of player feedback, they do it because they don't want to dedicate resources to create new gear for every role in every new duty. How could you possibly arrive at that conclusion is beyond me. No one has ever asked for re-use of models, if anything we'd ask for the opposite.

Also, them releasing items on the Mogstation for real money is not in any way related to this conversation. Just because I said that devs should listen to their playerbase doesn't mean that I'm claiming that they don't listen to us at all, does it? You said that "the devs don't need to be told...". Yes, they do, because thats how games get better.

I honestly don't understand what reason you could possibly have to still be arguing against this when there are no good arguments against it. Not from an identity perspective, not from a coding perspective, none whatsoever. It feels like you're just going against it for the sake of going against it and there is no actual purpose to it. You're arguing against having more options which is the most bizarre thing a player of a video game can do.

Edit: From reading your other reply to Siddiax its beginning to sound like you just have some weird, twisted and skewed view of the community and you're against anyone who asks for any changes to the game regardless of how good or bad they might be. I hate to break it to you but giving good suggestions with good arguments that make sense and will objectively only be a net positive for every player of the game is not being a "rabid player" who "always finds something to gripe about". Its called giving feedback so that the game can improve, like I'm sure we all want it to.

[Siddiax]

A lot of gear remains locked to save time.
You're increasing the workload seven fold, with the same amount of resources. No go my friend. No go.

You're just speculating. I don't get whats with people against the removal of glamour restrictions and acting like they to know how everything works behind the scenes.

It's never been thrown out the window. Like ever. If it was thrown out the window, we wouldn't even be having this discussion now would we? What you mean to say is you want it thrown out the window. You believe that just because playful glamours are released, it defeats all purpose to continue to have restrictions on the glamour system.

Have you ever actually seen the sets in this game ? 99% of them have no role defining features and are sometimes heavier or lighter versions of the same type of gear. Whether it be the Aglaia or Asphodelos sets there's nothing that defines a role or a job's identity in them.

Not just that, but why do we already have DOZENS of cases where restrictions don't matter ? We've also already received a non-role restriced version of the Sky Pirate sets. Even if we forget about Bikini tanks and all the silly outfits, just the fact that every job and role can use any of the Mogstation sets is enough. We're long past "just ignore the exceptions" when every other set they release is a real-life casual outfit which is used by 90% of the playerbase.

I just fail to see how letting us mix and match striking and maiming gear is so incredibly immersion breaking. In fact, you're literally against giving players more freedom in creating immersive outfits.

[Gemina]

You're just speculating. I don't get whats with people against the removal of glamour restrictions and acting like they to know how everything works behind the scenes.

And you never will. You are correct that I am not there behind the scenes. Putting aside that I have a BA in computer science and coded for 15 years, I also don't need to be there. I don't need to be because I don't view the dev team like this group of arseholes out to make their own playerbase miserable. I know that they work insane hours and sacrifice much of their livelihoods to bring us this game. I see and know that there attempts to satiate their rabid players are futile as they will always find something to gripe about.

Have you ever actually seen the sets in this game ? 99% of them have no role defining features and are sometimes heavier or lighter versions of the same type of gear. Whether it be the Aglaia or Asphodelos sets there's nothing that defines a role or a job's identity in them.

Yeah. What's your point? Identity has nothing to do with why those sets having restrictions. Would it make you happier if those sets were more designed to their respective roles? I was under the impression that raid sets were themed for the raid, not the game's jobs.

Not just that, but why do we already have DOZENS of cases where restrictions don't matter ? We've also already received a non-role restriced version of the Sky Pirate sets. Even if we forget about Bikini tanks and all the silly outfits, just the fact that every job and role can use any of the Mogstation sets is enough. We're long past "just ignore the exceptions" when every other set they release is a real-life casual outfit which is used by 90% of the playerbase.

I just fail to see how letting us mix and match striking and maiming gear is so incredibly immersion breaking. In fact, you're literally against giving players more freedom in creating immersive outfits.

If you really look at you're saying, it is actually your immersion that is breaking by not being able to mix and match sets of gear. And if you were to just own up to that instead of projecting what you feel is a flawed mentality onto others, then it would be easier to take such arguments more seriously. As I said before, those who are against restrictions being lifted deal with the very same limitations you do. The difference is they don't gripe about it, and make futile attempts to rationalize with you why they feel restrictions should remain. They are not complaining about restrictions and immersion breaking. You guys are.

[Siddiax]

Where do I even begin... You not only have no idea what you're arguing about, but are soooo strongly opinionated.

And you never will. You are correct that I am not there behind the scenes. Putting aside that I have a BA in computer science and coded for 15 years, I also don't need to be there.

Nobody cares how long you've coded for and your "BA in computer science" doesn't matter for this topic. I find it hilarious that you even had to mention it.

Square have also never said that its not happening due to technical issues.

I don't need to be because I don't view the dev team like this group of arseholes out to make their own playerbase miserable. I know that they work insane hours and sacrifice much of their livelihoods to bring us this game. I see and know that there attempts to satiate their rabid players are futile as they will always find something to gripe about.

I find the implication that making a suggestion is harassing the developers so ridiculous. Who exactly has said anything bad about the devs ? It's also apparently a crime to support a suggestion with proper arguments.

You're also literally calling hundreds of people "rabid" just because they don't share the same views as you.

They've released restrictions on many items of gear, and just released Lyse's outfit and hairstyle that has been in very high demand. And this is one big reason why I wish they did not lift restrictions. It's like apologizing to a mob.

That's a contradiction. Following your logic, if the Lyse outfit was in very high demand that means Square "apologized to the mob" by releasing it. In fact, by your words anything that has been suggested by the players that was later added would equal to them "apologizing to the mob". That makes absolutely no sense.

I've never also seen someone wish for the devs to recolor and re-release a gear set in another dungeon.

What's your point? Identity has nothing to do with why those sets having restrictions. Would it make you happier if those sets were more designed to their respective roles? I was under the impression that raid sets were themed for the raid, not the game's jobs.

Yoshida himself has mentioned that identity IS why we have those restrictions. No, it would not make me happier if those sets were designed for the roles. I just want to be able to use them on another roles. That doesn't make me entitled nor rabid.

Finally, you contradicted yourself again - since raid sets are themed after the raid and not roles, why do they have role glamour restrictions ?