Current Problem Parallels

[Saraide]

You know the story in a game is bad when people have to explain in paragraphs why its good lol

What kind of silly comment is that? I just answered questions someone had. How is that explaining why its good?

[Adamantini]

I am not surprised you didnt care for moenbryda's parents, you clearly didnt care for the story in general at that point.

I don't care about bad stories. If they wanted to make a drama, do it the first time we arrived in Sharlayan, not after we were in a hurry to save the world.

The lopporits only make sense if they are cute and approachable. They are supposed to welcome the people onto their new home on the moon, do you want the housekeepers to look approachable or do you want them to look like behemoths?

For real? I don't trust a bunch of teddy bears that say they terraformed the moon. Put someone charismatic but less silly and I'll take it seriously.

You're just taking story points and ask 'why do they make sense, i dont want them to'.

No, I'm throwing it in the guy's face, back there, that his writer didn't know how to write the story. I'm not saying "I didn't like it", I'm arguing because it's bad.
Again, they couldn't answer the questions about Hydaelin and Zoldiark, they created holes in the script, and they didn't even get a coherent narrative.
Why it is bad? Simple, because after Zoldiark died, there was no more time for cute bunnies on the moon. The expansion lacked urgency, leaving the "end of the world" story a joke.
In their urgency to make the characters the audience likes more "funny", they made most of them stupid, to the point where Graha, the Crystal Exarch we met in the first, a guy who stops in the middle of catastrophe, to talk about tapestry.
Elpis was irrelevant. If his goal was to build the boss, he didn't fulfill it. If his goal was to answer who Venat is, he did it wrong.

You know the story in a game is bad when people have to explain in paragraphs why its good lol

This.
Not only that. It was supposed to end the story, and what I see most in LL, are questions about Hydaelin, Zoldiark, Emet... But the story is already over, why are there still so many doubts?

[Vrankyl]

I don't care about bad stories. If they wanted to make a drama, do it the first time we arrived in Sharlayan, not after we were in a hurry to save the world.



For real? I don't trust a bunch of teddy bears that say they terraformed the moon. Put someone charismatic but less silly and I'll take it seriously.



No, I'm throwing it in the guy's face, back there, that his writer didn't know how to write the story. I'm not saying "I didn't like it", I'm arguing because it's bad.
Again, they couldn't answer the questions about Hydaelin and Zoldiark, they created holes in the script, and they didn't even get a coherent narrative.
Why it is bad? Simple, because after Zoldiark died, there was no more time for cute bunnies on the moon. The expansion lacked urgency, leaving the "end of the world" story a joke.
In their urgency to make the characters the audience likes more "funny", they made most of them stupid, to the point where Graha, the Crystal Exarch we met in the first, a guy who stops in the middle of catastrophe, to talk about tapestry.
Elpis was irrelevant. If his goal was to build the boss, he didn't fulfill it. If his goal was to answer who Venat is, he did it wrong.



This.
Not only that. It was supposed to end the story, and what I see most in LL, are questions about Hydaelin, Zoldiark, Emet... But the story is already over, why are there still so many doubts?

A story being bad or not is extremely subjective. Yes there are some objective measures, and no story is ever perfect. It is still possible for people to disagree on whether a story is good or not though because of the subjective nature of art and literature. May classic pieces of literature were widely disliked during their time, but now are hailed as masterpieces.

That said you are being willfully obtuse on certain parts of the story which are fully explained in the story. Zodiark did require the sacrifices as in order to enact the kind of things being requested a huge amount of aether was required, so much so that those living had to sacrifice their lives to provide the aether. While Venat knew of what was going to happen there was little she could do, because she'd have to convince the entire convocation, not to mention the populace at large, without a single shred of proof other than her word. Seeing as people today straight up deny science the probability of her succeeding in that is so small it shouldn't be an option.

Hydaelyn's ability to split Zodiark isn't a feat of pure power either. As discussed in the Shadowbringer's MSQ, Hydaelyn's ability is incredibly niche allowing her to split her foe into multiples and reducing their strength by the number of multiples they were split into. She created a total of 14 separate entities, which because Zodiark was the will of the star split Etheirys into the source and 13 shards. This reduced zodiark's power by a factor of 13 making him weak enough for Hydaelyn to contain. As for why she didn't take on Meteion, this is also brought up directly in the MSQ. One, she did make it so Meteion could be tracked. Two, aether and dynamis are opposites. The Ancients, to include Hydaelyn, were too rich in aether to be able to counter dynamis. It is only due to the diluted nature of the sundered's souls that they are able to manipulate dynamis which was a requirement to being able to take on Meteion.

Now I will agree, the time travel thing could have been handled better and they should not have used two different types of time travel theory that stand opposed to one another in the same story. Time paradoxes are annoying to say the least. Not to mention there were indeed some plot holes, but the same can be said of any story. Most stories never answer 100% of the questions readers have. In many case most stories do leave readers with questions and a desire to know more. That's just the way of it. Having questions remaining doesn't make it a bad story, it just means there's a loose thread. Also the scene with Urianger was important character building. It was not drama for drama's sake, it was to help his character move on from the guilt he felt.

[Adamantini]

snit

Finally someone coherent to talk to.

Yes, I intentionally asked several questions, some even memes, to see how far the "it's bad for you because you didn't read the story" argument would go. My point was to prove that most people cannot talk with facts.

Yes, it's true that there would be no proof, but to say that she wouldn't get at least a few followers is also to deny that nowadays there are people who believe everything they read on the internet.
She had a tracker in Meteion, so I believe in the power of the ancestors to see an iota of sense in what she was saying. If not most, some.
The problem here is that Hermes had already been defeated in combat by us, he was at a disadvantage, and Venat could have called in more dogs and gotten everyone out of there before the wipe. Hyth had a bow, but preferred to wait for Hermes to configure the memory shift system. This story could have ended in Elpis.

It makes sense about what you said about Meteion. Really if she destroyed that one, the others would be left. As for Zoldiark, I really wish they had given more time to this character itself. In the end, we don't even see him in action, it's like he's a shell.
However, it's still weird to say that Hydaelin's plan, if all goes wrong, would be to take us to the moon. Meteion could easily destroy the moon. If not by Dynamis, by brute force. The place was not prepared to receive people, I doubt it would have prepared for an attack of that origin.

What I mean here is that they got the timing wrong. Drama stories, funny points, cute points... this could have been addressed at the beginning of the expansion, and after that, make us pay attention to the catastrophe. There could be "breath" points in urgency (one joke here, one cuteness there), but not too long, as they were made. History has become a nest of ideas, where we start from the point that the world is ending, but eating carrots with rabbits is more important.
You could skip the entire expansion if you wanted, but the only quest that was unmissable was the tataru shop. I know I laughed when endgamers said that not being able to skip this quest was getting in the way of world first, but why was this quest so important for that to happen?
The point here, in a nutshell, is that they didn't know how to dose things. Erase the whole story, and just put the timeline of events, that's what I'm talking about.

Edit: about loose ends, I partially agree. Something punctual and intriguing, it can even be left as a basis for theories, but depending on how it's done, it sounds like not even the writer knew what he was doing.

[PawPaw]

Yes, it's true that there would be no proof, but to say that she wouldn't get at least a few followers is also to deny that nowadays there are people who believe everything they read on the internet.
She had a tracker in Meteion, so I believe in the power of the ancestors to see an iota of sense in what she was saying. If not most, some.
The problem here is that Hermes had already been defeated in combat by us, he was at a disadvantage, and Venat could have called in more dogs and gotten everyone out of there before the wipe. Hyth had a bow, but preferred to wait for Hermes to configure the memory shift system. This story could have ended in Elpis.

No...not true. You don't need proof when the Echo exists, everyone there has the ability to utilize it and this scene happens very shortly before we enter Ktsis Hyperboreia.



Using "well no one would believe her!" as an excuse doesn't hold up. Especially when the writers themselves show us how easy it is for them to see the truth for themselves.

[Saraide]

You are always arguing from both a meta perspective and an in-lore perspective. Choose one.

Yeah, that everyone know. But the real question here is "How"? If she had the power to subdue a god, why didn't she do something to defend her people?

Creation magic, hydaelyn was very specifically created to subdue. Zodiark was never intended to fight. Hydaelyn never had to keep the aether shroud active, that's a lot less power needed.

If Meteion functions as a "single mind", having one off the grid is a plot hole.

Meteion doesnt function as a single mind, there is a shared consciousness she can connect to.

So why it's in the main quest?

Because main story and side story happen in the same universe? What kind of dumb question is that, why wouldnt it be. Do you have the same grievance with the end of MSQ cutscenes in each expansion referencing the raid quest series?

It's the end of a story. It cannot have "I think" "my interpretation". It's over, we were supposed to be sure

But then you ask me about my interpretation anyway, so idk about that one chief, usually not everyone needs every thought spoonfed to them.

I don't care about bad stories. If they wanted to make a drama, do it the first time we arrived in Sharlayan, not after we were in a hurry to save the world.

But it's a very uplifting point in the story, giving your group the strength to weather to coming storm. It absolutely fits as encouraging send off to save the world. Urianger wasnt ready for it yet and Moenbryda's parents were also occupied. Again something you'd know if you had paid attention.

For real? I don't trust a bunch of teddy bears that say they terraformed the moon. Put someone charismatic but less silly and I'll take it seriously.

Well you can see they terraformed the moon so you dont have to just take their word for it.

This.
Not only that. It was supposed to end the story, and what I see most in LL, are questions about Hydaelin, Zoldiark, Emet... But the story is already over, why are there still so many doubts?

Me answering your questions can only speak about how much attention you have cared to pay to the story, it cannot speak to how good or bad the story is. There are only tons of doubts if you dont care about the story and therefore dont pay attention. Something you seem rather open about, atleast you're honest about that.

[Adamantini]

You are always arguing from both a meta perspective and an in-lore perspective. Choose one.

I never came here to discuss history. My first point here was about how forced things were. In addition to commenting on two characters that were not well finished.

Funny you guys talked so much about Urianger, I didn't mention him and you all soon assumed I was just talking about him. Perhaps because it was too much even for you? Sorry if I was more interested in going after the end of the world rather than following the drama of a character who died in ARR. They should have done this at the beginning of the expansion

I started to argue about lore after a dude coming up with this kind of argument. And then I thought it was funny to press one against the wall to see how far he could answer me. In the end, I ended up with no answers.

But finally someone coherent arrived to which I responded.

[VelKallor]

Sorry if I was more interested in going after the end of the world rather than following the drama of a character who died in ARR

Drama? Again this was in MSQ, in ARR to be exact, the two of them were childhood friends.

She was Urianger's best friend, a mentor, one of the very few he allowed to get close. Anyone could see the guilt he had at not seeing her parents. terrified of what they would say..terrified they would blame HIM for her passing. saying that he could have saved her somehow.

Survivor guilt does that to you, you stay away from those they were close to, afraid they would lash out at you and hold you responsible, even if it wasnt the case. note in previous conversations he asks after them and is told they are absent..you can see the relief on his face, glad that for now, that meeting has been postponed.

Even if you know there was nothing you could have done, you still ask yourself "why am i alive", "how do i explain what happened to her, how do i tell them I was not there to protect her..how do i face her parents?"

Urianger was quiet, sensitive, the studious type that didnt make friends easily, and like many, did not want to admit his feelings for her, did not want ANYONE to know the grief he carried alone, he locked it inside and let NO ONE in.

You have no idea what that feeling is when that meeting is not one of recrimination, but love, understanding, forgiveness. Didnt you hear her mother, angry not at Moenbryda's death, but that her best friend and someone THEY LOVED had carried that burden for years, alone?

"If there was one thing we resented you for, it was that we could not be there to mourn her with you"

I guess you will never understand.

[Kazelus]

I just love how every times someone says that EW story is bad always asks questions about things that were clearly answered in the MSQ, or asks about things that make no sense.
How can someone ask what is Zordiark or if it is good or bad after EW ?
Why people ask for the reason that pushed Venat to redo a self generating time travel loop when she remember that it had to be this way and she knows that nobody from the ancient is able to beat Meteion ?
People who are disappointed that the final boss was an unknown menace, as if it could be possible to be the opposite when we beat all the others menaces ?
And Meteion is a fucking good final bosses because she absords the despair in the whole universe and she have the ability to manipulate dynamis which is driven by emotion... Like what could have been more menacing ?

There is far more serious problems in the games before complaining because you didn't understand the story... Like, who the fuck choose the music for the final trials and his EX version ? That's a problem, it's completely out of subject and breaks the emotions of the moments. And the complete lacks of investment in making EX3, making it an economic version of the normal one.
Yeah, the jobs states is concerning but at least all DPS still have identity, tanks and especially healer are more concerning, next expansions may be scary for them...
And people that got stuck with bug for a months, yeah, that's annoying but it's not easy to see at first, cause not everyone will have it...

[Lauront]

I just love how every times someone says that EW story is bad always asks questions about things that were clearly answered in the MSQ, or asks about things that make no sense.
How can someone ask what is Zordiark or if it is good or bad after EW ?

I mean there's those of us who did pay attention, including to the subsequent LLs and interviews, who still find huge issues with it. This isn't just a problem of not paying attention, even if that is the case with some posters. This is a story driven MMO that prides itself as such. So not quite sure why people are expected to put these issues aside? Some of the points you raise are ones that are made in a very shallow manner by the story. And the fact that it required all that clarification on top, for people who did pay very close attention during SHB for example, is intriguing in and of itself. While this does not shove aside the other issues at all, WoW also suffered from the gradual degeneration of its own lore, as it gave way to ever more ridiculous scenarios. There is and was ample discussion on the EW story here, for example as well as elsewhere on the forum, and I don't think it's an overstatement that it's quite controversial.