Yoshi's Comment on Future Job Design - Are Jobs

[Jaquan]

I do wonder if making all content trust-compatible will allow them to worry less about job balance. If your three AI buddies perform pretty consistently, then it doesn't matter as much how balanced your job of choice is. There aren't other players around to complain about your performance.

Unless the goal would be to push more players to trusts which ultimately do offer inferior experience i don't think there ever should be a reason to forgo balance. I can't with good conscience agree with the notion of "casuals wouldn't care whether you play better or worse class". From my experience it's actually casuals who blindly follow the tier lists. It gives them another way to push the blame away from themselves. It's not their fault the party wiped, it's that guy who picked lower tier job and so his DPS/Healing/Durability were lacking which lead to the wipe. It's all their fault. Seen it way too many times to assume here it would be any different.

I'm all for the jobs having more ways to express and differenciate themselves but I do hope that should that happen they'd still remain closely balanced.

[Misplaced_Marbles]

I do wonder if making all content trust-compatible will allow them to worry less about job balance. If your three AI buddies perform pretty consistently, then it doesn't matter as much how balanced your job of choice is, you can still clear content. And then there aren't other players around to complain about your performance.

It won't matter since raids exist. That's almost exclusively the place where all that stuff is concentrated.

[Amenara]

The only jobs they need to add are job designers.

[Levirre]

I personally feel that the more jobs the add, the harder it is going to be to keep job identity due to how much has already changed to reduce how many jobs used to be. Astro's lost the need to actually pay attention to what card did what, and which buff each would give if used to strengthen other cards. They also lost their shield stance. A lot of the stuff you used to actually need to learn has been gutted from many jobs to be so mundane that they aren't as engaging as they should be.

I would personally prefer if they didn't add more jobs, but fleshed out the ones we already have so that they actually can regain some of their identity and be more engaging.

Yea 7.0 is actually the best time to not even release 2 new jobs and could just rework all the old jobs since everything wrapped up narratively. They already saw how much Summoner popped off with it's remake. They could definitely build hype around revamping everything.

[Rolder50]

Yea 7.0 is actually the best time to not even release 2 new jobs and could just rework all the old jobs since everything wrapped up narratively. They already saw how much Summoner popped off with it's remake. They could definitely build hype around revamping everything.

This would worry me because, for Summoner, they basically gave it a lobotomy in terms of complexity. Actually playing the job gets real old, real fast, once the visual spectacle wears off.

[KageTokage]

At this point I would gladly take jobs being more distinct over them being tightly balanced.

It's not like the casual majority even cares about that factor, and the hardcore will readily opt out of suboptimal party compositions even if the in-practice RDPS difference is less then 5% or so.

[shao32]

What Yoshi-p needs to do it's first stop playing BLM and start playing extensively every job that have several threads and a long list of complains, the second is stop using casuals for testing stuff and stop doing dumb things like replacing a tester bcs is becoming to good on the job/role, the third thing they need to do is start putting way more resources on the job development department and testing, stop homogenizating everything and stop destroying jobs wich use to have a strong gameplay identity in order to fit the boring mold they are trying to fit everything in.

Only then we gonna see Healers happy, we stop seeing DRK reworks suggestions every day, SAM players happy again, BRD feeling like a support job again, SMN recovering his distintive gameplay with new sumoning visuals and a large ect of job problems is plaguing the game right now, i expect them to do something about this? no unless they realice this job desing agenda it's becoming an FFXIV ulcer that is doing way more bad than good as we see today but i consider Yoshi-p is getting to blind by the success on selling the game to see the hole he is digging.

[AluneTempest]

They need to make a big change to the combat system to explore more jobs designs, see what they did in PvP (that have a completly different combat) made me think that they can really do a great job if they want to.

Is SE stuck in the current combat system (?)

[Shougun]

I actually like the condense of SMN and believe it should be done even more*, but continue to add more features at the same time (and I do think the complexity of SMN is a bit late, move some stuff up sooner lol). I think the PvP template is interesting, though of course for PvE you need more- and each button ideally being condensed and useful. Sort of an expansion on the MOBA concept (so instead of 40 buttons that do one thing, or a MOBA being 4 buttons that do 8 things you've got like 16 that do 30 interesting things, and most of those 16 being pressed decently often).

*Though I know not everyone likes to work with a smaller hot bar, to me... personally.. a huge hot bar is not what makes something fun, I would be much happier with the same features in less buttons (or maybe more features, and in less buttons). So I'm not suggesting all jobs have to have the same thing done, since I do believe sometimes a job should have a quirk just for those types of players like "oh that's the 15% harder to play DD, with 0.5% more damage, because some people are masochists" etc lol. I'm not into pulling the carpet on people, just stating my preference in not having to have four full hotbars because a lot of abilities could be combined but weren't "because because".

I do wish there was more elements of uniqueness for jobs. One I've tried suggesting for a while now that is fairly innocent is roleplay strictly related additions. For example Dragoon being able to jump higher than other jobs in areas they've unlocked flying. It's balanced to content design (wont ruin MSQ progression), impactful to the concept that you can jump high, and doesn't impact something like ultimate which needs very tight balance. There are a lot of things like this that could help separate each job. Something I feel WoW does much better than FFXIV. That said I don't like how in WoW you can't do everything on one character, like you can't be a crafter of all the crafts- very annoying (imo), so given FFXIV's job design I feel such serious negative impacts of differences is even less because if you wanted to jump high.. "just play dragoon" and also "you're making a big deal out of something that doesn't impact your invitation to difficult content, aka.. "why"..".

Differences that go beyond that are nice of course, but more difficult if you're trying to make very sharply tuned balance at the same time. Like when Paladin got repeat button press atonement I was like "aw man I don't want fel cleave". Now the special effect is really cool on confiteor though (so the art design offsets the gameplay lol).

WoW definitely has significant differences between some jobs, and within the specs themselves sometimes which is very cool - but it's also fairly common to have a garbage spec that no one wants to see you on because it does actually just pull large amounts of aether through a garden hose. I read that in the new expansion WoW is making alts even friendlier closer to the point that an alt is almost like FFXIV job changing system (not quite, but ish), and if they improved their balance (and stop making certain specs consistently bad lol), that could pose an interesting competition to FFXIV. Not saying anything for certain yet, because the expansion is not even out so we're all on hot air but I'm hoping FFXIV is ready to answer the call for improved competition (potentially).

Two ideas that I have when watching paint dry.. that would be far more dangerous, maybe to think about for a new/different game, but allow significantly larger differences in jobs would be:

a) Jobs have two components, the wild very role play designed job with differences as wild as how you actually progress content. Like one job might just approach content entirely different. The easy example being perhaps Blue Mage levels by learning spells. All jobs have their design based on what is both thematic and fun but only on a basic level ensuring balance (which means never purposefully make one job way better than another, and hope each job has a moment to shine, but don't' destroy a functional and fun pile of jobs because another job's concept doesn't perform as well in that concept). THEN also having a more PvP / savage / ultimate build which is made to be highly balanced (with some quirks still naturally), with probably the same sort of reduced number of buttons but with content that is extremely demanding to replace the lower buttons. Once you can echo content you can enter it with either form (the PvP version attempting to take the best notes and themes to not make it feel like two separate jobs but rather a distillation of the wild and loose form). Because most content the wild form will be in wont be hyper difficult even jobs that are unoptimized for the situation can still 'win', but everyone is going to be in a much stronger state of asymmetry.

b) Move a lot of customization into some other new concept, to keep value and fun in leveling, but make gearing and gaining 'combat' levels fairly easy- such that you design the game to actually expect players to change for situations. Might even allow players to change jobs in some content. Huge levels of care needed to ensure that the solution to every problem isn't "black mage burn" though, as was a classic when balance was a bit off in FFXIV (1.0) and FFXI (sometimes). In this situation somehow the stats need to be more separated from the classic end goal of glamours, so everyone is working for the cool new things, but somehow at the same time it isn't a HUGE pain in the chocobo when you hear "no red mage" because you've easily got three other options to come as. Jobs are more asymmetrical but it's also less taxing to expect a player to know and have multiple jobs leveled (and perhaps might even be a requirement for some content).


My own wish in one hand and something in the other though would be adding far more roleplay elements that don't impact balance in every way that is fun and interesting as much as possible for all jobs, and then adding more asymmetry than is currently present but still try to get everyone within a general expectation of value. Due to this... savage and ultimate would have moments where your job isn't as desired.. and.. that sucks ;/... Perhaps there can be an auto balance system that takes participation rates for jobs and increases the bonus for having one of that job in your party. So if your job is the least likely to be picked then it'll have the highest bonus. Would be interesting to see if players try to manipulate that system though lol.

[Reylah]

When I read that the FFXIV devs were having a tough time thinking of new jobs I laughed. It was a sad laugh because I had watched them systematically strip out a whole damage style for no clear reason. I’m talking about DoTs. Relegated to the thing that procs bard abilities and the only other dps button healers can hit. Maintaining DoTs and effects is a playstyle that people can enjoy but they were deemed unacceptable and destroyed.

WoW definitely has significant differences between some jobs, and within the specs themselves sometimes which is very cool - but it's also fairly common to have a garbage spec that no one wants to see you on because it does actually just pull large amounts of aether through a garden hose.

This is something that always catches my eye when people talk about WoW’s spec balance. Technically all of the specs hit the same “can clear all content” bar as FFXIV job design does, but there is more “infinitely scaling” content that makes the differences between specs more obvious once you pass that bar. The “infinitely scaling” content drags small differences out until a line is crossed and the lower performer can’t go higher. Mythic+ dungeons are the clearest example in WoW when this happens. Every spec can get the highest achievement for the content (clearing all keys at +20) but going higher and faster than that, things start to fall off the list.

I think the best comparison for FFXIV is speedkill runs because the race to do more damage will cause certain jobs to be favored over others but the base content of just killing the boss is capable of being done by every job. Speedkills are not as high profile though so it doesn’t have as much trickle down effect on player perception of job/spec balance.

There is also the compounding factor that some spec’s excel in AoE or single target so your group composition has to account for that. As an example I main an Assassination rogue and my single target damage is superb but my AoE is much weaker. When I swap specs to Outlaw I can equal or exceed my assassin AoE damage while being a whole raid tier lower in gear but my damage to 1 boss target will be trash by comparison. M+ has more AoE heavy fights but single target damage is still needed on bosses so if the group already has 2 AoE specs they won't want a third. Conversely in raids single target is favored for more bosses but there are fights with heavy add phases so a few AoE specs are needed. Its a design philosophy that has flaws (but they all do) butI think the benefit for spec identity was worth it.

I would compare FFXIV jobs to Specializations in WoW, because classes just have an overarching flavor and specs hold most of the play style differences. One of the reasons why IMO WoW has stronger spec identity is because the devs said it's ok for specs to actually, you know, specialize in things.

Hell yeah there are some balance issues but as the saying goes “Nature finds balance not through equilibrium, but through change.” I’ve been watching as, with each expansion, the FFXIV devs have tried to make jobs more equal and become less willing to make system level changes and it's worrying me. I first started playing in HW because FFXIV offered some unique play styles that I couldn’t find in other MMOs like AST cards and later dance dance revolution on the dancer and jumping in with the stabby stick on RDM then flipping out for the big boom. Some of these identities have been eroded away and it doesn’t look to be stopping soon.


Designwise I would say this is a part of spec identity in the same way “pure dps” vs “support dps” is for FFXIV dps jobs. Some jobs do more damage while others boost their party members dmg. That they both contribute damage as a perk is a function of encounter design and a whole nother kettle of fish.

There is something the devs can play with: damage profiles. Not AoE vs single target, that wouldn’t really work with how encounters are designed in FFXIV but something could be done about every job having a build and burst cycle that is designed to land on a 2 min cycle for party buffs. Why do I care about dancer feathers if it takes 1-2mins to build up 4 feathers before I have to worry about losing some procs if I’m just going to blow them all in a 20sec party buff? Is there ever a time to use them outside of party buffs? only if you might over cap or want a pretty animation.

Want they could do:
1) they could add (or add back, less likely) more DoT based jobs.
2) generate and use resources on smaller, quicker cycles for some jobs (but not all because then they just play the same again) perhaps instead of a combo system for once. I know its core to FFXIV but all the jobs have a set “press 2 after 1” decision making tree. Adding a job that doesn’t already makes it unique.
3) have healers actually heal in different ways like more heal over time from AST for predictive pure heals or single big shields from sage and many small/medium shields for scholars. Well, maybe that would work if FFXIV bosses were more varied in their own damage profiles but as it stands this won’t work and I should stop kidding myself.
4) stop designing jobs to fit the fights and just let the fights allow for the jobs. I.e. Sage is a super generic healer because it has to be able to go back and do all of the fights from 2.0 onward, not because its actual theme is bland. Everything that could have been interesting got ironed down to fit the formula. Sure it has some new things but it doesn’t actually feel different, just more inline with what's expected of healers. Know the fight to prepare your heals (shields), hit things but this time it's worth more than just damage.

Damn. It all came back to encounter design anyway. But I think they totally could make more new jobs if they bothered to try.