Would Endwalker have been better if we never visited Elpis at all?

[DPZ2]

If the entirety of the storyline surrounding Venat and the events of Elpis had not been in-game, would the story seem better to you? Or was it essential for the successful conclusion of 6.0, despite the dislike of that storyline for a number of forum posters?

[Xirean]

We went there to answer a question. So long as we find the answer to that question elsewhere I see no reason why we would have to go there. Yes I think it would have been better if we just visited ruins or something.

[Kolsykol]

We went there to answer a question. So long as we find the answer to that question elsewhere I see no reason why we would have to go there. Yes I think it would have been better if we just visited ruins or something.

I don't think that would've been nearly as fun and exciting, and ultimately it's a video game that needs to be taken into consideration too.
I generally don't like time travel stuff but I had more problems with the Crystal Exarch and Crystal Tower or the insanity of the Alexander raid than I did Elpis.

My preference tho would've been that we had somehow used our connection to Azem to sorta enter her/ his memories in a sort of physical way ( for gameplay purposes ) and it could've played out the same.
Meteion could still feel a connection to us because of Azem the same way that Hythlodaeus opened up so easily he even said it himself that it was probably because of our soul.

Ultimately tho I really wonder if people are as critical of time travel in other movies or games, or motives and methods of other villains like Thanos or uh... Emet.
Like do people even actually think it was poorly executed or do they just hate time travel?
Because there is a difference...

oh yeah and another thing

elpis takes away from the whole idea of being just a random lowly adventurer who rises to the occasion because of timetravel bs. in order for the plot to work (ie venat to trust us) we need her traveler's charm, and we get the traveller's charm in the arr intro sequence. it re-contextualizes everything in a bad way

............
This hasn't been a thing since basically early ARR o_O...
I dunno why when we got the blessing matters at all there.

Also the story was never planned out from the very beginning which is something worth remembering.
I mean it was really SHB that went in and rly started to connect things.
There are going to be holes or some retcons...

[Xirean]

I don't think that would've been nearly as fun and exciting, and ultimately it's a video game that needs to be taken into consideration too.
I generally don't like time travel stuff but I had more problems with the Crystal Exarch and Crystal Tower or the insanity of the Alexander raid than I did Elpis.

My preference tho would've been that we had somehow used our connection to Azem to sorta enter her/ his memories in a sort of physical way ( for gameplay purposes ) and it could've played out the same.
Meteion could still feel a connection to us because of Azem the same way that Hythlodaeus opened up so easily he even said it himself that it was probably because of our soul.

Ultimately tho I really wonder if people are as critical of time travel in other movies or games, or motives and methods of other villains like Thanos or uh... Emet.
Like do people even actually think it was poorly executed or do they just hate time travel?
Because there is a difference...

I've actually suggested something like this in other threads. But I think Kuro put it very plainly that the issue is our ability to return there whenever. The reason I suggest ruins is for the possibility of a zone to explore that also allows for location based echo visions. Looking into someones memories and having the WoL take the place of that person in said visions would allow for the instanced duel with Venat and the dungeon to remain as well as any story cutscenes though they would need to be reworked. Having the WoL view events rather than experience them changes quite drastically the implications of what is going on with that moment of the story. I've said it before; don't let me shake hands with a memory and not expect me to try to change things.

[Chie_M]

I think it would've been better if we'd done what we did with Cid's memories in the Southern Front - but Meteion would still be the end villain, so no, it wouldn't have improved Endwalker overall. Only Elpis.

[Rolder50]

I think it would've been better if we'd done what we did with Cid's memories in the Southern Front - but Meteion would still be the end villain, so no, it wouldn't have improved Endwalker overall. Only Elpis.

It could also improve other aspects of the story. For example, I would have liked to see more meat added to the Garlemald story, or more time spent during the so called "Final Days". Both of which could be achieved if Elpis was just a solo instance or some such.

[Theodric]

I think that it would have made for a better story if the game did not decide to weirdly attempt to justify the genocide of the Ancients. Whether that meant going to Elpis or not.

Endwalker fell apart in the eyes of many, I suspect, because of the inconsistent morality and 'themes'. The game loves to force the antagonists to be sympathetic and placed in impossible to comprehend bleak circumstances only to treat them as a nuisance for daring to stand up and do everything possible to in order to preserve and protect their loved ones. It's fair for the protagonists to seek to do the same thing, of course, though the story has become plagued with situations where the protagonists will do the exact same thing they accuse the antagonists of doing yet it's conveniently brushed under the rug.

[Chie_M]

I think that it would have made for a better story if the game did not decide to weirdly attempt to justify the genocide of the Ancients. Whether that meant going to Elpis or not.

Endwalker fell apart in the eyes of many, I suspect, because of the inconsistent morality and 'themes'. The game loves to force the antagonists to be sympathetic and placed in impossible to comprehend bleak circumstances only to treat them as a nuisance for daring to stand up and do everything possible to in order to preserve and protect their loved ones. It's fair for the protagonists to seek to do the same thing, of course, though the story has become plagued with situations where the protagonists will do the exact same thing they accuse the antagonists of doing yet it's conveniently brushed under the rug.

You make consistently excellent points about Endwalker, and you put things into words that I know I dislike, but I can't explain why I dislike them.

[KurohNeko]

I think that it would have made for a better story if the game did not decide to weirdly attempt to justify the genocide of the Ancients. Whether that meant going to Elpis or not.

Endwalker fell apart in the eyes of many, I suspect, because of the inconsistent morality and 'themes'. The game loves to force the antagonists to be sympathetic and placed in impossible to comprehend bleak circumstances only to treat them as a nuisance for daring to stand up and do everything possible to in order to preserve and protect their loved ones. It's fair for the protagonists to seek to do the same thing, of course, though the story has become plagued with situations where the protagonists will do the exact same thing they accuse the antagonists of doing yet it's conveniently brushed under the rug.

I'd disagree. Entire point of Endwalker and the latter half of Shadowbringers was that Emet and Elidibus and their actions were understandable and not wrong. They simply weren't the best actions. More like a neutral route. The only reason the protagonist and gang were able to rise above what they could achieve is due to the sundering and calamites both weakening humanity making it vulnerable and mortal and forcing it to learn to crawl and then walk when it used to always fly. Thus allowing it to both become stronger than the ancients ever could be as well as look at things from another perspective. The protagonist didn't seek to do the same thing as Emet or the ancients. He sought to go above and beyond. Same with the rest of the gang.

[PawPaw]

I commented to a friend when I'd finished the game that Elpis was both the best and the worst experience in the expansion for me, and that still stands. As much as I loved meeting Hythlodaeus and seeing and learning more about the world of the Ancients, 99% of the issues I have with Endwalker stem from Elpis and my experience overall would have been made better by the writers finding another way to tell that part of the story that didn't involve time travel, last-minute-villains, memory wipes and emotional manipulation.

While there were things about the place and the experience that I absolutely loved, it was not worth the dozens of massive plot craters that were created by its inclusion.