Why IS the savage lockout system the way it is?

[Colt47]

It's both a stretch of content aswell as burnout protection. Having to clear it multiple times in the first place to get all your gear forces you to be a bit more consistent than just getting in one lucky clear if the fight design doesnt already enforce that.

Again, this is not about asking them to get rid of lockouts on savage content, this is asking them to talk about why they have the system the way it is in an official capacity so that feedback can be appropriately directed. There are ways that the system could be designed better so that it doesn't cause social issues between players while still meeting the goals of timed gate keeping. At least that is the running opinion of people who have been playing when going back through articles and discussions.

[Liam_Harper]

I think it's hard to say you blow through it in a couple weeks when the game effectively forces you to clear for potentially 7-8 weeks to get BiS on one job. I think honestly the loot should be role locked instead of character locked so you have the option to run it multiple times a week on multiple roles so you can gear up more than one role, especially in a game where they encourage you to play multiple jobs.

Absolutely this.

It's ridiculous that a game where you can play every job on one character does a u-turn at endgame and limits you to one BiS job per 2 months. It doesn't stretch the content or prevent burnout, it causes burn out because you might want to try an alt job in Savage but just can't face waiting 2 months for decent gear and decide it's not worth the hassle.

It's also strange to refuse to stretch out content in most areas of the game except a tiny handful of activities like Savage or 500 hour long grinds for achievements. Most players don't even do Savage so it only applies to a small fraction of the player base anyway. It doesn't really make sense.

Basically I'd be fine with 8 weeks on average for BiS, but not per job. The raid tier is dead and the next one on the way before you even get through 3 jobs.

[Deveryn]

Absolutely this.

It's ridiculous that a game where you can play every job on one character does a u-turn at endgame and limits you to one BiS job per 2 months. It doesn't stretch the content or prevent burnout, it causes burn out because you might want to try an alt job in Savage but just can't face waiting 2 months for decent gear and decide it's not worth the hassle.

It's also strange to refuse to stretch out content in most areas of the game except a tiny handful of activities like Savage or 500 hour long grinds for achievements. Most players don't even do Savage so it only applies to a small fraction of the player base anyway. It doesn't really make sense.

Basically I'd be fine with 8 weeks on average for BiS, but not per job. The raid tier is dead and the next one on the way before you even get through 3 jobs.

If anything doesn't make sense it's this supposed need to change things up partway through, which would be potentially disruptive in a static situation. Savage is no place to be flip flopping. You should know what you really want to do by the time you get there. If you still don't know, wait and figure it out.

[Awful]

I think it's hard to say you blow through it in a couple weeks when the game effectively forces you to clear for potentially 7-8 weeks to get BiS on one job. I think honestly the loot should be role locked instead of character locked so you have the option to run it multiple times a week on multiple roles so you can gear up more than one role, especially in a game where they encourage you to play multiple jobs. Though my opinion doesn't mean much as I don't have the time/will to PF savage anymore.

100% this, it sucks you have to wait 8 weeks minimum to get BiS and that's not even counting the Tomestone cap every week at 450, we're at what week...idk 20 somethin? Why can't the Tomestone cap be 900 since the new raid tier is coming out in Summer? It sucks waiting 8 weeks on an alt job when your main job is BiS to try Savage when you also have to consider buying big ticket items like pants that are 825 tomes that also take a minimum of 2 weeks to cap, why can't we just cap it at 900?

I'm fine with the 450 tomes within the first 3-4 months of a raid tier, that's fine, it's the later part where the raid tiers out and people want to catch up or get BiS on alt jobs you can't because you have to hurry up and wait, there's so many jobs that need so much Radiant gear it'd make your head spin, add the role lock option and make tomestones go up to 900 months after raid release.

[Packetdancer]

That and no one really is asking them to get rid of weekly lockouts on savage. More so the design of how the lockout works is suspect and it would help a lot of they did officially talk about the lockout system for savage and why it is the way it is.

I can't speak for SQEX, but as a former game dev I can absolutely tell you why I would implement the lockout this way. (Even if, as a player, I find the lockout mechanics annoying.)

Players in general will try to optimize content, and FFXIV players in particular will do this to an extreme degree.

Let's say the lockout was only a personal lockout: when you clear for the week, you can't roll on loot after that point, but it doesn't affect the group. So you could have seven people who've already cleared for the week, and the eighth would still get to roll on two chests. (In fact, since the other seven already cleared for the week, that eighth just gets everything in both chests.)

Now what you have is a scenario where a static could have each have two characters: one 'real' one, one 'throwaway' alt.

The party groups up with seven 'throwaway' alts and one player's real alt. They clear the first fight of the tier... and the seven throwaway alts pass, while the 'real' alt takes all the loot. Now the real alt logs out, that player swaps to their throwaway, and another player switches off their throwaway to their real alt. Party clears the first fight again -- the throwaways all pass (six of them have to anyway, since they cleared once), and the 'real' alt takes all the loot. That person logs out and swaps back to their throwaway, another swaps to their real alt, the group clears the first fight of the tier...

In essence, a determined group could have farmed nearly all their savage gear within a week or two that way. And if you think people wouldn't do that... you would be surprised. :|

Moreover, you could now have folks be like "we'll sell you a clear and all the loot" because it doesn't matter how many times they've cleared that week; the person they're selling the run to can still get both chests. (Not that people don't sell loot via clear now, mind you -- lord knows we see those advertisements in PF periodically as it is -- but at least they can only do it once a week under the current system.)

[technole]

I think some people were not here in ARR earlier coil days when you cleared with a group for the week, you were locked out of ever going back into the raids until the following week. The whole 0-1 chest concept did not get added until Final Coil and it was used as a way if you finished with your raid group on Tuesday, you can go back and help people clear instead of saying 'sorry, outta luck' unless you had an alt that did not clear.

The concept is fine. Majority of MMOs do a lockout system. Let's not forget there was no pages and pity buy system as well. That didn't get added until Gordias. Only monk loot and no monk in-raid? Womp Womp for the week and forever.

[Elesh]

So this is something that has been kind of annoying to figure out, but is there a reason as to why the savage loot lockout system is the way it is? Like an actual live letter or any kind of conversation involving the FFXIV team at some point?

When I search online for the reasons why the lockout is the way it is, I just end up finding articles that talk about why the lockout system should change.

https://www.mmorpg.com/columns/the-s...ken-2000106634

Like this article from 2017 talks about it and I remember reading it, but then when I try to google search this whole thing nothing official shows up anywhere.

To sum it up, it feels like the entire decision was just made and then despite articles like that one being made, there's been no active conversation from anyone on the FFXIV team as to why the system is the way it is.

The approach being used seems very atypical for the kind of game that FFXIV is, especially since it is touted as being a casual friendly MMO. It would probably be a welcomed thing to at least having it as a subject in a live letter or some conversation.

which specific component of savage loot rules do you want to know the reasoning for? There are a number of components and each has rational behind it...

[ArchlordPie]

I can't speak for SQEX, but as a former game dev I can absolutely tell you why I would implement the lockout this way. (Even if, as a player, I find the lockout mechanics annoying.)

Players in general will try to optimize content, and FFXIV players in particular will do this to an extreme degree.

Let's say the lockout was only a personal lockout: when you clear for the week, you can't roll on loot after that point, but it doesn't affect the group. So you could have seven people who've already cleared for the week, and the eighth would still get to roll on two chests. (In fact, since the other seven already cleared for the week, that eighth just gets everything in both chests.)

Now what you have is a scenario where a static could have each have two characters: one 'real' one, one 'throwaway' alt.

The party groups up with seven 'throwaway' alts and one player's real alt. They clear the first fight of the tier... and the seven throwaway alts pass, while the 'real' alt takes all the loot. Now the real alt logs out, that player swaps to their throwaway, and another player switches off their throwaway to their real alt. Party clears the first fight again -- the throwaways all pass (six of them have to anyway, since they cleared once), and the 'real' alt takes all the loot. That person logs out and swaps back to their throwaway, another swaps to their real alt, the group clears the first fight of the tier...

In essence, a determined group could have farmed nearly all their savage gear within a week or two that way. And if you think people wouldn't do that... you would be surprised. :|

Moreover, you could now have folks be like "we'll sell you a clear and all the loot" because it doesn't matter how many times they've cleared that week; the person they're selling the run to can still get both chests. (Not that people don't sell loot via clear now, mind you -- lord knows we see those advertisements in PF periodically as it is -- but at least they can only do it once a week under the current system.)

This guy gets it.

As much as it sucks, the current system is incredibly effective at deterring split raids and paid carries and that sort of thing. The last thing the high-end community needs is to have to roll a second character, MSQ it, level it, gear it, and start clearing fights 8 times a week in order to be "optimal".

[Jeeqbit]

The solution to that would be for the people who have already cleared to automatically roll Need (they would be unable to change this) and if their roll wins, the loot gets destroyed.

[LisSquid]

I've lived with weekly lockouts since I was a wee bean, but I hate the fact you can't help people after you've cleared (or just wanting to do the fight again) without taking their loot away. That is the worst feature of Savage, imho.