The Ancients still deserved better, after everything

[Lauront]

Although I agree with your points, which are well made, there's one thing I'd differ on - Hythlodaeus is referring to an awareness of the plans for their revival, but the timing is unclear. I'm aware that he phrases this as "the events leading to our purgatory", but he also frames Hydaelyn's intervention and the star's fate in that context, which would've came after, and suggests they were along for the entire ride as an audience; I suspect what he's referring to is their state within Zodiark on the moon all those thousands of years, later culminating in a dream of kinds, as "purgatory". I am speculating a little here, but given that Elidibus stated in SoS that he could hear the debate on this raging amongst his people, and thus emerged to reconcile their differences, to me it seems more like a case that those inside him became aware of this through something like that. The most compelling reason for the third round of sacrifices in my eyes is the fact that by all appearances, being left in Zodiark deprived them of something they valued as a people, which is return to the star. There may have been a case to delay this until Meteion is driven back, but that'd require them being informed of this.

The screen I posted earlier with the Hythlodaeus dialogue describes how badly damaged their star was by the incident.

[Gemina]

Except we didnt even turn against Venat, we call her a hero lmao, and go along with her entire plan.

What are you talking about? Her plan was exodus, and her contingency plan was a haymaker that completely relied on Azem. We said eff that, and we're going to eliminate the problem at the source. With or without you. Nullifying thousands of years of hard labor by her adorable Loporrits. Instead of fighting with us to give us an edge, she decides to test our might with what remains of her power and gets owned just like every other primal. Call it what you will. I will call it "Azem's day of payback."

Whether someone considers Venat a hero or not is beyond the point. She is still part of a race that loves to cause mass extinction events, and carries that trait as much as any of them. Her smug face in your signature is exactly how I see this woman.

[Gemina]

Desperate times call for desperate measures. I also only recently remembered that according to Hythlodeus in Mare Lamentorum, the potential revival of the Ancients who gave themselves to Zodiark was always a consideration from the very beginning, which likely played into their willingness to go through with it.

The first sacrifice was very definitely needed as the world and mankind were both on the brink of total annihilation.

The second might not have been needed, but it's implied that the environment had been damaged so badly that more lives would've been lost by the time things corrected themselves naturally and/or with the aid of the Ancients doing in a more mundane (By their standards, at least) fashion.

The third was definitely not needed, but would've been the last according to the Convocation's plans. There surely would've been some Ancients who still wouldn't have been satisfied, perhaps those who lost loved ones to "natural" causes and were claimed by the Lifestream, but sparing those souls from being trapped in Zodiark would've been a certain kindness at a cost we were really not given enough context behind.

Just the fact that troubled people like Hermes and Erichtonios still existed stood as proof that their world really was only perfect in a relative sense, and I don't think they were at much risk of a "death by paradise" with how calculated every decision the Convocation made was.

The only pardon I grant the ancients is that they were ill-prepared for the initial final days (before any bootstrap parodoxes). They were indeed desperate. However, subsequent sacrifices only goes to show how easily and quickly they are to resort to these "desperate measures". It leaves the question, "Did they really have to sacrifice so many souls to halt the end of days?"

Venat's case is much different. As only half of the ancients were willing to sacrifice their lives. Everyone else were murdered by the sundering. She's no hero in my eyes. But she was saved by one.

The potential revival of the souls sacrificed is an interesting one coming from the perspective of one of those very ancients who sacrifice themselves. I believe Emet also said this, but that is coming from someone who justifies the rejoinings by considering sundered souls to not actually be living, so he's not actually killing anyone.

As I said before, this race of people have destruction written in their DNA. Every bit as much as their creation magicks.

[EagleDynamics]

https://www.theverge.com/2022/4/29/2...source=twitter

“With how cleanly Endwalker reaches its conclusion, there may be people out there who feel uncertain about future adventures,” he said. “That’s precisely why I had Emet-Selch take on the role of chiding like, ‘What’s with that lonely look, as though you know and have adventured through everything there is to see in the world? That’s nonsense, there are so many views you’ve yet to see. I’ve seen them; now you go see them, too.’”

I dare you.

the guy youre replying to is a notorious troll. i and many others just ignore him.

[ElizanderNorisse]

Yes except for Hermes.

[ZeraSkiratea]

What are you talking about? Her plan was exodus, and her contingency plan was a haymaker that completely relied on Azem. We said eff that, and we're going to eliminate the problem at the source. With or without you. Nullifying thousands of years of hard labor by her adorable Loporrits. Instead of fighting with us to give us an edge, she decides to test our might with what remains of her power and gets owned just like every other primal. Call it what you will. I will call it "Azem's day of payback."

Whether someone considers Venat a hero or not is beyond the point. She is still part of a race that loves to cause mass extinction events, and carries that trait as much as any of them. Her smug face in your signature is exactly how I see this woman.

you COMPLETLY misunderstood the entire thing....
to the very core
THE EXODUS WAS THE PLAN B!!!! The Exodus was her plan if humanity ended up not being capable of fighting the Final Days and Endsinger or if they just "gave up".
She specificaly said "[I] saved [...]my power for this very moment" testing us was the plan A, if we failed, she would send us away to never look back(specificaly she says in the trial herself "Follow your light, Or Fly my children and Never look back")


and what you mean "instead of fighting with us to give us an edge" SHE IS A PRIMAL!! A BEING SOLELY COMPRISED OF AETHER!!! She is the least usefull thing that could have "helped" us in the fight,

at best its a Stalemate where noone can do anything, at worst the dynamis would drown her out(she is CONSIDERABLY weaker then Zodiark).

[Gemina]

you COMPLETLY misunderstood the entire thing....
to the very core
THE EXODUS WAS THE PLAN B!!!! The Exodus was her plan if humanity ended up not being capable of fighting the Final Days and Endsinger or if they just "gave up".
She specificaly said "[I] saved [...]my power for this very moment" testing us was the plan A, if we failed, she would send us away to never look back(specificaly she says in the trial herself "Follow your light, Or Fly my children and Never look back")


and what you mean "instead of fighting with us to give us an edge" SHE IS A PRIMAL!! A BEING SOLELY COMPRISED OF AETHER!!! She is the least usefull thing that could have "helped" us in the fight,

at best its a Stalemate where noone can do anything, at worst the dynamis would drown her out(she is CONSIDERABLY weaker then Zodiark).

The exodus was not the plan B. It became the plan B. Hydaelyn explains to Y'shtola after she asks if she really expects mankind to just flee that the exodus in one of two paths, and that the other will take the adventurers to Meteion. The scions already inacted the plan to wipe the floor with Psychotron before even confronting Hydaelyn in the Aetiascope. It was their intention to do everything possible to save the star before abandoning it to its fate. When Hydaelyn says the other path takes us to Meteion, we are kind of like, "Bingo. So are you going to help, or not?" Then she proceeds to tell us that she bars the path to Meteion, and we are like, "So no, then?"

Obviously, I'm using some paraphrasing based on my feelings towards Venat, but it doesn't change that the Scions learn of Hydaelyn's plan of Exodus through the Loporrits, and decide for themselves that is without question, the last resort. This was when it became fundamental to contact Hydaelyn because they just had to know if this was her true intention.

When I mention fighting with us, that doesn't necessarily mean she is there intervening on Ultima Thule. *sigh* I admit to being wrong here. I know she did give us the ability to conjure forth both Emet and Hytholdaeus and restore the Scions, empowered the mother crystal, which also served to get Zenos to Utlima Thule, created the Loporrits, and loves us like no other. I know she placed the burden of burdens on her shoulders, and was punished heavily for the sundering. There's a part of me that remains bitter though. Very similar to an actual mother/daughter relationship. Anger makes it easier to part from her.

[ZeraSkiratea]

SNIP

No, the dialogue you reference just means she strongly considerd the Exodus, Plan B, to be the one to be fullfilled given everything that had happend
it dosnt mean that that was her prefeered plan, nor her "plan a"


Plan A was always to stop the final days for good, exodus would been a delay, like Zodiark, not a solution.


HOWEVER her plan A was specificlay for US(as in the Species of Etherys) to decide on their own to confront the final days, all she ever did was guide us when no other option was available (mostly do to ascian machination) or to give us the actual understanding what the final days are with Elpis.


Plan A dosnt mean you expect it to work, its just the PREFEERED way or outcome for something.
The Prefeered outcome is "ending the final days for good" thats her Plan A, she just believes it has a infinitly small chance of happening(given the ancients and everything i cant truely blame her, she sunderd us so we had a CHANCE, however small it be, but that is it, a chance), so she stacks a lot of her work into her Plan B because she cant help with Plan A much without kinda ruining the whole point of it.


The "one of two paths" dosnt indicate that one or the other is better, or her prefeered option, just that its, "one of two paths"
Ystohla also correctly summarizes afterwards iirc that that was hydelins intention all along. To Test them. And nothing gets you better into the mood of beating aprimal, then said primal saying "My Plan is contrary to your own, lets fight".

[TaleraRistain]

The exodus was not the plan B. It became the plan B.

I never got the impression the exodus was anything but a backup plan in case it turned out that we weren't up to snuff in facing Meteion. That's why I gathered she challenged us. The ship was something she could actively work on as a contingency plan since she wasn't entirely certain it was all going to come out right. Otherwise she was just waiting to see if our timelines converged and resulted in a Warrior of Light who could defeat the Song of Oblivion for good.

[Kranel_San]

Ancients deserving better doesn't mean they should have it. That's how things work irl and I'd prefer it to stay as such to give a touch a logicality.