Is the WoL actually good though?

[Selvokaz]

I want to take a moment a point out that the WoL isn't a perfect picture of a paragon of positivity.

When you first start the game and are on your way to one of the 3 city-states, you're asked by the Merchant what brought you to your starting zone. "Power, Fame or Fortune" Now color me skeptical, but none of those options necessarily paint the WoL in a good light. If you came for Fortune, you're looking to profit from other people's misery. If you came for Fame/Glory, then you're ignoring the plight of others and are likely going to step on anyone to achieve said success. If you've come for Power, well I mean that says a lot about you already. Then is the 4th option "..." but that might as well not be a real option anyway or a copout.

Then you have to realize that the character you're playing wasn't born yesterday and likely picked their starting city-state based on some criteria and forehand knowledge of what is good and BAD about it. You can't tell me your character picked Limsa and didn't know some if not a brief history of its backstory, that it was pretty much founded by Pirates, and still is very much ran by Pirates who still regularly engage in piracy, these are not nice people by any stretch of the imagination

Then you have Ul Dah, where there are literally refugees forced to live outside the protection of the city walls, in squaller, where people rob, rape, steal, and likely any manner of things just to stay alive, yet your hero could choose to go here and walk right by these outcast and mosey on up to the A.Guild and look for work, and while it's been a while just when does the WoL take an interest in the suffering of others in Ul Dah, I think its right before the Ifrit fight when the Echo sort of first takes hold of you and you see that harassed ones back story, prior to that you only did jobs that sometimes had you help those who had some kind of payment in exchange for your help. So either you were down for some piracy if you got the chance, or you were cold-hearted and came to Ul Dah just to get paid.

Gridania might be the exception, it's been too long since I actually started there, and thus I don't remember its issues right off the top of my head, so I'll not question that.

All three recruiters praise you for your courage, strength, and willingness to put yourself in harm's way. I guess that sounds kind of heroic, but they weren't watching you every step of the way, some of this had to likely be told to them by whomever it is you're reporting to at the Adventurer's Guild, and of course, they'd sing your praise because you get the job done and bringing in the money for a job well done.

What I'm doing is trying to build some doubt here in the life of the WoL, because while you always seem to fall in on the right side of history, the idea of it all is perspective, because for some of us at the end of the day we acknowledged a certain someone who put it quite clear that we and they are much alike, in that we do it for the thrill, and I think or choose to believe that leaves us in a very much grey area, but it just so happens everyone is happy to overlook it or maybe just not see it.

[Kranel_San]

It all depends on your own perception.
You could answer "I want power" because you want to protect those you love, or because you just want to feel strong. It's working either way.
When you stepped into any of the three starter cities, you were a nobody, not a powerful hero, and not a chosen one (Yet). Someone with nothing other than their start gear next to their name. No house, no friends, no family, nothing! So of course, you'll be looking to get to work and build yourself from zero. Most people who're in need of help are capable of paying, with few obvious ones so it's not a real issue. However, adventurers are always in demand, and it's not expected from one to: "You need help? Don't worry, I'll put my life in danger and fight those bastards on my own for free!".
In the end, it's all up to you really. You're what you think you're.

[SannaR]

Those three things on their own aren't inherently bad though. Just look at Raubahn he won enough money and gained a lot of fame and power from his fights in the blood sands. He bought not only his freedom but that of Pipin's. He also used those things to gain a seat on the syndicate. If I remember correctly that happened before becoming Flame General. He also did so in order trying to help fellow Ala Mhigans. It's partly why Nanamo wanted to put money in helping those who are living right outside the city walls. Don't forget part of that is people being displaced from the Umbrel Calamity. It matters on how you use said Power, Fame and Fortune on if seeking it out is a bad thing or not. So, even if you might have started out seeking one of those things you end up at least using one of those answers to do some good. I don't think the ... answer is a cop out as maybe you're just looking for adventure or your WoL wanted to have a fresh start somewhere. And if you're a Legacy WoL maybe you chose the ... because you wanted to try and find comrades that you became separated from due to the time leap.

[Dikatis]

"Are we the baddies all along?" feels like a fairly milquetoast take at the end of all of this.

In short, no, WoL is not the moral paragon they're held up to be. They're not infinitely wise, kind, or good, are definitely an adventurous thrill-seeker who enjoys the rush of combat and challenging themselves against worthy opponents, and can come up with some downright baffling responses to certain situations. Their dialogue options also let them be teasing, sour, dismissive, and kind of a jerk.

But they ARE consistently empathetic toward the plight of others, have an extremely hard time saying "no" to cries for help, are surprisingly unprejudiced regarding races and creeds, and generally have a strong sense of right and wrong along with the compassion to aid others in need. The entire 30-50 and 60-70 Dark Knight questlines are the Warrior consistently rejecting offers to escape the responsibilities they've taken on despite the grief, pain, and suffering those same responsibilities have caused them. The Warrior has left a small mountain of bodies in their wake and they do NOT feel good about it as well as bottling up many of their resentments about being taken advantage of, to the point that Fray, aka Esteem, is their repressed self-love and self-esteem desperately trying to make them happy again. Esteem, aka the Warrior themselves, berates them for kowtowing to the whims of others as "the Weapon of Light" while Myste, their repressed grief and desire to bargain for the lives of those they've lost, refers to them as someone who brings ruin to friend and foe alike.

Despite this, the Warrior refuses to shirk these responsiblities and deny the things they've lost or the people they've sworn to protect. They even go out of their way to protect the woman who drugged them at the disastrous peace conference despite having every reason to resent her. In their free time they make gifts for and entertain orphans, help rebuild settlements destroyed by war and monsters, acts as an ambassador between nations and even worlds, and consistently gives hope to the hopeless. At least once an expansion, there's a quest where WoL goes around offering pick-me-ups and words of encouragement for the downtrodden for no reason other than they feel that it's the right thing to do.

Regardless of the silly and jerkish dialogue options they've gotten over the years, WoL is consistently portrayed as possessing deep, abiding compassion for their fellow man and repeatedly stakes their life for people they barely know despite the risks and volunteer their services even when they know they're being exploited. They're not a perfect boy scout, but it'd be a stretch to call them truly unheroic.

To quote Fray: "We are the stories we tell ourselves. The brave hero, the tortured soul, the altruist, the pragmatist. They will tell you who they see, but you and you alone know who you are." The Warrior is a brave hero who fights for the weak and has saved the world several times over. They're also a person haunted by their regrets and revels in being able to tests themselves in combat and have something to vent their frustrations against. They're an optimist who tries to see the best in others and a generous soul who loves to help. They can also be a ruthless pragmatist willing to butcher an entire enemy medical team to afford their allies an advantage in war.

Ultimately, they're heroic and unheroic in equal measure and whether they're a champion or a monster depends on which side of the conflict you're on, but to call them a baddie would require ignoring their consistent acts of kindness and self-sacrifice in service to others for no reason other than it being the right thing to do.

[Rannie]

So, even if you might have started out seeking one of those things you end up at least using one of those answers to do some good. I don't think the ... answer is a cop out as maybe you're just looking for adventure or your WoL wanted to have a fresh start somewhere. And if you're a Legacy WoL maybe you chose the ... because you wanted to try and find comrades that you became separated from due to the time leap.

As a Legacy player you don't get a choice since it never shows you in the carriage. Start up for the Legacy is you teleport into some area in Gridania then it cuts to Louisoix talking right outside the city.

[Vyrerus]

I want to take a moment a point out that the WoL isn't a perfect picture of a paragon of positivity.

Well, as I recall, the Adventurer's Initiative was first started in order to give mercenaries who were out of work something meaningful to do with the battle skills which were their only skill, so that Eorzea didn't become overrun by mercenaries turned bandits. They had relied almost entirely on mercenaries to defend themselves from the Garleans at some point in time.

You'll notice you can't start as a crafter or gatherer. You start as a battle class with basic battle skills. The WoL is essentially an ex-mercenary looking for the next point in their life.

Mercenary, especially in other cultures, carries a negative connotation with it. Sellsword is another term for it, and they're generally seen as filthy money grubbers willing to sell themselves to the highest bidder (often turning coat if enough money is involved). The Eorzean city states spinning up the Adventurer's Initiative is somewhat a stroke of genius. You get mercenaries to at least go through an official guild so that they're never desperate for work, and even get them to re-label and evaluate themselves.

I think this goes a long way to telling you what the WoL's life is like at first. They don't have a lot of money, a home, or a group of people to call their own. By joining the Adventurer's Guild they gain all of this through the one skill they do have, fighting. This also explains why the majority of crafting recipes go towards gear, food, and potions that all have an effect on combat.

They become a good egg through the auspices of falling in with a good crowd, more or less. They were also already law abiding. If the story wanted to be dark, then the Ascians or some other organization would have recruited us then, instead. Of course, what where would the challenge come from if the WoL did fall in with the bad crowd? How much room is there to become a total bad ass if the Ascians or Garleans are merely treating you like a minion or lower ranking officer (if that)?

It's basically in the WoL's every interest to fit in with the Eorzean Adventurer's initiative, because it's a lot less regulated on them gaining power and prestige, allowing them to freely travel, traipse, traverse, and deep dive into dungeons and meet with world leaders based on the merit of their ability alone. They're basically just going to where other people will recognize their worth, and they will be able to live freely and well because of it.

Also, as far as Gridania goes, you go there because you know the Elementals have accepted you. The people still think of you as a yucky foreigner though, and if you're a Duskwight or Ala Mhigan then you're only going to be hanging out with the other Duskwights and Ala Mhigans. WTB Duskwight GF (kidding, kidding).

[Rulakir]

I'd say if anything the WoL is consistently rather selfish, it's just more difficult to tell because usually that selfishness comes in the form of protecting their loved ones which is often tied to an overall greater plot such as fighting for the nation of Ishgard even though in a dialog option Thancred says you've ever fought for friends, not nations.

The WoL is also, for better or worse, easily influenced by the people they love. The Scions, in particular, if they say jump the WoL asks how high. This makes anyone opposed to the Scions automatically on bad footing with the WoL, who is often depicted as extremely closed-minded towards anyone who's even remotely associated with a conflict in the past.

As someone else mentioned, the DRK quests further emphasize the WoL is just outright tired of being a "slave" to having to help others. Later, they address the WoL wondering whether or not they've always done the right thing, which is frankly something I wish they'd address more in the MSQ.

[Cleretic]

The Warrior of Light is a fundamentally good person.

That's a basic element of the character, and one that's been consistent across the entire game. That doesn't mean they're a flawless, perfect saint--they're clearly a person of finite patience, they seem to occasionally be either greedy or profit-minded depending on how you read certain dialog choices, and judging by the story of both Dark Knight and Warrior they've got a lot of pent-up rage (I feel if two job quests hit the same major point it's probably correct and not just an invention for one story). And at several times they've been put in situations with no good answer. I would say in those situations they went 'pick a side and hope it's right', but that's not really true either; the WoL is always fundamentally on the side of their common man. That means they're always against threats to them, be those threats tempered zealots, an opposing empire, space aliens, or genocidal ghost wizards with a sob story.

But that doesn't change the simplest, and most important, fact of their personality: that the Warrior of Light is a good person. If you need their help, and that help doesn't involve harming people of their (frankly constantly growing) list of friends and allies, you're about to get the best help they can offer. And hell, they don't even seem to have particularly harsh criteria for who they consider 'worth helping'; think back to how quick the yellow quests open up from the dragons in Anyx Trine, the Garleans in Tertium, or... honestly, most beast tribes. There's good odds that the WoL will offer to help you even before you're ready to accept it!

They are not 'a paragon of positivity'; again, they're not of infinite patience, and they might have anger issues. But you'd have to be a fool or contrarian to not call them a good person, and if you actually WANT them to not be a good person... frankly, I don't think you're playing the right game.

[KizuyaKatogami]

the WoL is very back and forth and i personally dont think theyre that good of a person.They seem to only really do thingws for the good of themselves and who they care about, everyone else be damned. They're also pretty strange on what they proclaim as good and bad. For example i'd imagine they wouldn't side with a genocidal self-proclaimed deity, but they do so in the end. Drk quests paint a loy of light on the WoL, where one of the questions even has us goading a noble to attack us so we can kill him, or almost driving an animal species to extinction.

[Cleretic]

If your main argument that the WoL isn't a good person is that they stood against the people trying to kill them, then you don't actually have an argument.

If someone comes up to you and goes 'I have an internally consistent reason why it's morally correct to murder you and your loved ones', and your response is 'I would prefer to not be murdered', you are not a bad person for that even if that person who wants to murder you doesn't like it.