Tank IDENTITY

[Mikey_R]

I didn't mention Bloodbath. I don't think that it makes sense as a role action, though.

It is what it is. If you want to make the claim that WAR's 'heal on attack' effects are not 'lifesteal' just for the sake of this discussion, we don't even have the starting point to start talking.

I just wanted to know how you would describe Bloodbath? I'm guessing it is again vampiric, but it is available to all melee DPS, and you cannot say they all have to have a vampiric theme just to support this. This is what I was trying to get at without directly trying to steer you in that direction. However, Bloodbath is more of a life steal than Bloodwhetting, being that, Bloodbath's health gain is directly proportional to the damage you do whereas Bloodwhetting is a static heal potency. Since the heal potency is static and independent on the damage you do, it cannot be a life steal.

You also seem to have the misconception that anything involving aether is magic by nature when, in reality, it is not. See all the special effects on the weapon skills? Lorewise, that is all aether being used to enhance attacks. The circular saws on Fell Cleave? Aether, ground shockwave on Decimate? Aether. Equilibrium restoring HP? That is you using aether to heal wounds. Everything is made of aether but that doesn't mean everything is magical.

[marelooke]

It is what it is. If you want to make the claim that WAR's 'heal on attack' effects are not 'lifesteal' just for the sake of this discussion, we don't even have the starting point to start talking.

Because they aren't. Lifesteal means taking something else's life force for your own. WAR does not do that, and never has.

You can dislike the way WAR works all you want, but as long as you keep insisting it's somehow "lifesteal" this whole discussion isn't likely to go much of anywhere.

Though I'm not sure it even matters, recent changes to multiple classes indicate that "braindead" is the skill level classes are designed for now. Anything that is "creative" in any way, shape, or form, would likely be considered "too hard". I mean, apparently they thought ShB WAR was "too hard", and even EW WAR needed to be "streamlined" in 6.1 because still too complicated, so yeah...

[Lyth]

Aether manipulation is magic.

I get that you want to keep lifesteal on WAR because it's fun and you've been grandfathered into it. That's perfectly fine with me. But that's the crux of why this 'identity' discussion comes up again and again.

Also, what's up with the sealioning? I'm not here to explain every silly design decision this game has ever made.

[marelooke]

Aether manipulation is magic.

Even if so, that still doesn't necessarily make it lifesteal.

[Lyth]

Even if so, that still doesn't necessarily make it lifesteal.

Oh? Well, if it's not lifesteal, I imagine that nobody would miss it if the devs removed it from the game. Since that's not the theme they're going for, after all.

[marelooke]

Oh? Well, if it's not lifesteal, I imagine that nobody would miss it if the devs removed it from the game. Since that's not the theme they're going for, after all.

Ah yes, you calling it something it isn't will mean people won't miss that which it actually is...
As I said, lifesteal means taking the health from the enemy, which warrior does not do.

You can argue that from a technical PoV there's no difference, which I could accept just for the sake of argument, but you're then purposefully twisting that to meaning it doesn't fit the job fantasy, which is where I strongly disagree. You seem to sticking to the term just as a means to beat on that. Strictly speaking I don't think FF XIV has any jobs that really lifesteal from a "fantasy" PoV, you need to go to other games for that.

Arguably the de-facto "standard" for lifesteal "fantasy" jobs is the Necromancer, and for tanks that is likely EverQuest's Shadow Knight (which Blizzard "borrowed". WotLK's iteration was pretty much a carbon copy insofar the mechanics of each game allowed), which is a combination of Warrior *and* Necromancer (those would be EQ classes though, which, as most of us know don't exactly translate 1:1 to Final Fantasy)

[Vatom]

Ah yes, you calling it something it isn't will mean people won't miss that which it actually is...
As I said, lifesteal means taking the health from the enemy, which warrior does not do.

You can argue that from a technical PoV there's no difference, which I could accept just for the sake of argument, but you're then purposefully twisting that to meaning it doesn't fit the job fantasy, which is where I strongly disagree. You seem to sticking to the term just as a means to beat on that. Strictly speaking I don't think FF XIV has any jobs that really lifesteal from a "fantasy" PoV, you need to go to other games for that.

Arguably the de-facto "standard" for lifesteal "fantasy" jobs is the Necromancer, and for tanks that is likely EverQuest's Shadow Knight (which Blizzard "borrowed". WotLK's iteration was pretty much a carbon copy insofar the mechanics of each game allowed), which is a combination of Warrior *and* Necromancer (those would be EQ classes though, which, as most of us know don't exactly translate 1:1 to Final Fantasy)

You were dead serious about this post huh?

Get off your high horse for the sake of argument
Heal/hit dress it up how you want the mech doesn't change

Ok here goes lifesteal is the mainstream name of HEAL PER HIT
You can say your life steal is soul siphon or souleater or Drain or Idk any

[DannyDeDitto]

Arguably the de-facto "standard" for lifesteal "fantasy" jobs is the Necromancer

I can't really relate to this one, from someone that enjoys Necros religiously there's two things that make a Necromancer; Undead Minions, and Curses, you're basicaly a Grim General™ so while some jolly little paladin would cheer and bless their comrades in arms to make them do their job better you instead debilitate your enemy so they get effed up harder by your pets. Life-Stealing, Dark Magicks like throwing bone shards all over the place like it's a gothic Metal Slug, satanic stuff like becoming a demon, all that shite and more, in that order, isn't quite ''necessary'' it's more of the bonuses you can give to a necro when adding one to your game or whatever, but those two i find are the most, say, ''appropriate'' way for a necro to start with. That's basicaly what Diablo 2 necro was like if you went with a minion build, popular choice was to also pair it up with corpse explosion but a simple skeletons + curses was a really strong and amazing combo, if a bit lazy which is why corpse explosion was more exciting, in the manual they also had some very nice lore to their skills, how they were basicaly able to shape both spiritual energies and material ones as well, which is why they can make clay, metal and fire golems, and making a skeleton is kind of both of those where they take a pile of bones, and slap a soul on it to keep them bones together... anyway i'm getting off-track here <-<'

[DannyDeDitto]

Healing on warrior i find more appropriate for it to just be equilibrium and thrill, and mixing that up with a shit ton (or i guess just enough for balance's sake) of extra damage reduction on him, as in, you're so fucking angry that you feel no pain, you do not feel pity or remorse or fear and you absolutely won't be stopped ever.

That said, they still can have a little bit of it regardless since warriors, specificaly this one being the more Berserker type, sometimes they have it here and there. But Lifesteal itself is a concept i find more grim in nature, and that's why you always see it on classes akin to dark knight in most other games.
However, warrior in lore already has this Beast inside of him so you can spin it around and find sense in drinking the blood of your enemy like a bloody animal, but i'd remove either thrill or equilibrium as a result, and replace it with more DMG Reduction like i said, anything that increases the warrior's size, anybody? feeling like being a fucking Titan?
But this much healing, as much as i love it, doesn't really ''feel'' right on warrior for me i think it's way too much, i'd rather it be dark knight that gets that.

Paladin's already pretty well established with it's more support oriented kit being able to shield and heal themselves and others i honestly have no complaints there.

Gunbreaker... i'd say shields would fit them a bit more, they're more of a half steampunk/cyberpunk job and a few of their abilities, including their LB3, already include very cyber looking shields, just give em a bit more maybe.

[Shurrikhan]

That said, they still can have a little bit of it regardless since warriors, specificaly this one being the more berserker type sometimes have it here and there. But Lifesteal itself is a concept i find more grim in nature, and that's why you always see it on classes akin to dark knight in most other games.

However, warrior in lore already has this Beast inside of him so you can spin it around and find sense in drinking the blood of your enemy like a bloody animal, but i'd remove either thrill or equilibrium as a result, and replace it with more DMG Reduction like i said, anything that increases the warrior's size, anybody? feeling like being a fucking Titan?

I think that mostly comes down to comparative theme. If Warrior is supposed to be the superarmored, unmoveable titan... what is Paladin with its shield and heavy plate armor supposed to be?

Initially, the two jobs were set as opposites to one another:

Paladin was designed to be one who rises to the challenge, as a vanguard, whereas Warrior was just a beast unleashed who could be put to group use but would otherwise go things solo. The first was a guardian, the second a hardy brawler. The first was a first and last line of defense, the other a force of nature thrilling in the fight.

The result:

• Paladin's mitigation scaled primarily with content (was percentile), while Warrior's mitigation scaled primarily with its own stats (based on abilities and damage dealt).
• Paladin's eHP bonuses scaled multiplicatively with mitigation; Warrior's did not.
• Paladin offered further efficiency group healing funneled through it; Warrior did not unless specifically favoring defense.
• Warrior's HP would jump wildly, moving in either direction; Paladin's would change slowly, but, without outside influence, in only one direction.
• Paladin offered party-member support; Warrior supported only itself.
• Paladin was entirely preemptive; Warrior was primarily reactive.
• Paladin could heavily and choicefully sacrifice output for sustain (which could be cast on anyone); Warrior's offensive and defensive choices instead largely played around each other, thematically and mechanically favoring offense.

Now, not all of those points of opposition could actually work. For instance, pure stat scaling, even if properly balanced, would end up just a noticeable net disadvantage early in a tier but overpowered by its end. But overall those kinds of deliberate distinctions, or comparative identity, were pretty powerful.

And those comparative identities were a whole lot more thematically cohesive and comprehensive than just A get shields, B gets self-heals, C gets evasion, etc., etc. (to what may come out as identical niches and feel in practice).

:: I think we need to consider, for that and similar reasons, we need also to consider how a job fits alongside others when deciding how to anchor its themes mechanically. That's not to say only one job can claim ownership to this or that mechanics --far from it-- but if we're to set one as thematically the 'nigh undamageable bulwark' or whatnot, through whatever mechanics may fit, we should be sure we're applying that theme to the right 1 of n jobs in role.