Warrior PvP Feedback - experienced warriors

[NyneSwordz]

To add onto yesterday since I was in a rush.




As for why people attack you on war? Uhh...24k instant damage to everyone in the area with a 10% damage up that can instantly recover it's HP and if you don't call their bait can force you to use your other defensive resources.

.

No one is "pumping out" damage when they're dead.

And where is this "10% damage up?" I think you got onslaught and orogeny mixed up.

And Wars have no "defensive resources." I think that was my point. Bloodwhetting does nothing. You either overheal if you hit a tightly packed group or you're just going to die because the healing and shield doesn't do jack.

And the 10% damage DOWN on orogeny is nice, but how much damage you have to take to even make the 20% of current health cost even worth it? You're not going to survive that damage to make the mitigation worth the health cost.

And with the nerf to bloodwhetting, the War needs to hit 3 people with chaotic cyclone to offset the cost of orogeny. And then he needs hit them with primal rend to get any sort of true healing. Otherwise, mashing on auto combo doesn't heal enough and fast enough to offset any sort of damage.

They nerfed bloodwhetting for absolutely no reason. It wasn't overpowered outside of LB, and even then, the correct adjustment would have been to the health bonus under LB, not bloodwhetting.

Wars melt instantly when they are in the midst of a fight - where they were designed to be.

Revert the bloodwhetting nerf, remove or reduce health cost from orogeny, or just reduce damage across the board.

[Saucy_Jack]

Seku, burst and CC are a pretty big part of the meta. Setting aside the whole WAR balance discussion, you can’t argue burst and CC aren’t at minimum a major part of the meta, if not among the defining aspects. Low burst and mediocre CC are part of PLD’s weaknesses that PLD players have to play around.

PLD is strong because it’s insanely mobile, durable enough to make full use of it, and cover is broken af due to letting people channel pots mid combat. None of these things change the fact that PLD having low burst and CC is one of its weaknesses. It’s strong because a skilled player can work around those weaknesses by playing to its strengths, not because burst and CC aren’t important in ranked lol...

The durability is strong because it lets you survive burst that other players can’t, letting you engage for your team when opportunities show. It’s quite literally useful in the first place because a flat shield and DR make it easier for you to survive burst and CC that other jobs can’t, when an enemy player steps out of position and someone needs to jump on them first. Cover is useful because it lets teammates survive burst and CC with purify on CD, as well as letting them heal to get out of burst and CC kill windows (which lets them go back to playing more aggressively and be more effective). Paladin kill pressure is primarily applied by chaining CC to a vulnerable target so your team can... burst them down. That or occasionally chasing down runners further than your teammates can, because they’re low enough for your low burst to still be a threat.

Sure burst and CC are not the only thing that matters, in PvP there’s always quite a few factors to consider. But to say it’s not majorly meta defining is pretty wrong, it does matter a lot. Saying PLD “has 1 option…. defend” is super super super wrong

On the WAR end their higher burst does matter for balancing, both for output and ability to take burst. That’s why it’s pretty common sense that there is a learning curve at high plat/Diamond that MOST warrior players go through before hitting crystal, due to their relative weakness to CC and burst starting to be abused at those ranks. You can’t remove those things from the equation in any way when discussing warrior balance.

Regardless whether people think warrior power level is balanced at crystal, orogeny could stand to be changed in general to be more usable in more situations than it is now. Setting aside job power levels, the ability is too situational against players who know how to play imo, which makes it a lackluster and frustrating design for a lot of WAR players

[Seku]

Seku, burst and CC are a pretty big part of the meta. Setting aside the whole WAR balance discussion, you can’t argue burst and CC aren’t at minimum a major part of the meta, if not among the defining aspects. Low burst and mediocre CC are part of PLD’s weaknesses that PLD players have to play around.

PLD is strong because it’s insanely mobile, durable enough to make full use of it, and cover is broken af due to letting people channel pots mid combat. None of these things change the fact that PLD having low burst and CC is one of its weaknesses. It’s strong because a skilled player can work around those weaknesses by playing to its strengths, not because burst and CC aren’t important in ranked lol...

The durability is strong because it lets you survive burst that other players can’t, letting you engage for your team when opportunities show. It’s quite literally useful in the first place because a flat shield and DR make it easier for you to survive burst and CC that other jobs can’t, when an enemy player steps out of position and someone needs to jump on them first. Cover is useful because it lets teammates survive burst and CC with purify on CD, as well as letting them heal to get out of burst and CC kill windows (which lets them go back to playing more aggressively and be more effective). Paladin kill pressure is primarily applied by chaining CC to a vulnerable target so your team can... burst them down. That or occasionally chasing down runners further than your teammates can, because they’re low enough for your low burst to still be a threat.

Sure burst and CC are not the only thing that matters, in PvP there’s always quite a few factors to consider. But to say it’s not majorly meta defining is pretty wrong, it does matter a lot. Saying PLD “has 1 option…. defend” is super super super wrong

On the WAR end their higher burst does matter for balancing, both for output and ability to take burst. That’s why it’s pretty common sense that there is a learning curve at high plat/Diamond that MOST warrior players go through before hitting crystal, due to their relative weakness to CC and burst starting to be abused at those ranks. You can’t remove those things from the equation in any way when discussing warrior balance.

Regardless whether people think warrior power level is balanced at crystal, orogeny could stand to be changed in general to be more usable in more situations than it is now. Setting aside job power levels, the ability is too situational against players who know how to play imo, which makes it a lackluster and frustrating design for a lot of WAR players

Then by your logic, pld needs buffs. Major buffs and war is fine.

Every tank has mobility.

Every tank can live through a burst. PLD doesn't have any advantage against Crowd control that the other tanks do not. Show me where PLD has this magical second purify that I'm missing, that no one else does. You're not, because they don't.

I know cover is useful, see my statement of PLD being good with a good team and having personal good skill above.

War kill pressure can also be applied by chaining CC, better than PLD, to a vulnerable target so that your team can burst them down. Aka, Primal rend and Blota.

And by your logic, show me where PLD has another option other than to defend..? All you've stated about PLD in your previous post have been defensive actions. You coulda made me look a bit silly by trying to argue that their support. But WAR provides just as much, by your own words

"Cover is useful because it lets teammates live" - defensive.
"Engage the enemy first so that you can soak up damage with Holy shelltron" - defensive. Because you ain't killing nobody.
"Pld kill pressure is primarily applied by chaining CC to a vulnerable target" - Defensive and everyone can do this. PLD has less options. So PLD ain't chaining CC other than with their team mates - which your team should be doing anyway. As you said CC is apart of the meta.

Chasing down target, you're running a risk that the other team is coming back around to the crystal, where you're most effective at. Why not let the DPS with mobility options, a ranged dps, or a caster do their job and take the kill so you can keep doing what you're best at and defending. The only time this is actually a viable option is if you're chasing a target into their team to try and claim the kill, which in most cases is a bad idea as you're probably going to get CC'd unless the rest of the team is on the defensive as well. In which case it's still better to let the DPS handle it and actually us cover if they get CC'd so you can soak up the hit... by which time the near dead player is probably healing up.

And again, Cover is deeply flawed. See the reasoning above.

And no, orogeny can stay where it's at, as it's another tool that war can use to help burst down the enemy team. If cover can force you to use other resources forcing it to be something you have to THINK about, war should have at least a little bit of thought process.

Again...WAR doesn't have a "weakness" to CC. What option is Warrior missing cure CC? Does it not have purify? Show me what option that WAR is missing.

[Saucy_Jack]

I already addressed every point you brought up dude, up to you if you want to accept it or not. You’re really grasping at straws when you say silly things like claiming engaging a fight or applying kill pressure is a defensive action (lol what)

TBH everything you’re saying just sounds like you don’t really know how PLD works, and you’re just going off reading random forum posts about it to make some bizarre argument about burst not mattering in PvP. Saying it’s not that mobile when it has two charges of enemy gap closer on a TEN second cd and an ally gap closer? Saying cover is “deeply flawed” when it’s currently one of the strongest single non-LB abilities in the entire game, since battle pot essentially negates every gcd and cooldown used to get the covered player low to begin with? Saying it’s a disadvantage to chase down a player running to pot that teammates can’t chase without dying? It’s an automatic lose-lose situation for the enemy team if you can identify and take the dives that you can survive to stop pots, since they have to either let you finish the player off or pull more players to peel you off, which is a numbers advantage for the rest of your team. You need to stop trying to use it as a comparison for your arguments, because anyone that’s ever played PLD even as low as diamond should know none of what your saying makes any sense

Honestly in general there’s.. a lot of stuff in your post that makes me think you don’t really know what you’re talking about. Like “every tank can live through burst” as if PvE role assignments actually apply to current ranked balance. Especially silly when we’re in the middle of comparing a blue dps that bursts itself for ~30% current hp between orogeny and onslaught to use its own burst, has no on demand DR, and has weak sustain without the enemy team grouping for you, VS the closest thing PvP currently has to an actual tank with both major shielding and dr on demand, consistent strong sustain, no health costs, and a way to redirect damage to yourself.

On topic, imo orogeny in general is a badly designed ability regardless of job strength, because it’s annoying and restrictive to use, easy to play around, and the payoff isn’t particularly satisfying. Warrior is just more vulnerable in playstyle atm than it necessarily should be because dumping damage on a warrior lowers orogeny damage and makes it too risky to use a lot of the time due to the fairly large self burst, and doing so has no real drawbacks as warrior also has no active DR to speak of. This is compounded by better players giving fewer opportunities for 5 man aoe memes, and better players being more prone to punish a warrior for being aggressive, instead of ignoring the warrior under the misconception that they’re somehow a brick wall due to being classified a tank in PvE

[Seku]

I already addressed every point you brought up dude, up to you if you want to accept it or not. You’re really grasping at straws when you say silly things like claiming engaging a fight or applying kill pressure is a defensive action (lol what)

TBH everything you’re saying just sounds like you don’t really know how PLD works, and you’re just going off reading random forum posts about it to make some bizarre argument about burst not mattering in PvP. Saying it’s not that mobile when it has two charges of enemy gap closer on a TEN second cd and an ally gap closer? Saying cover is “deeply flawed” when it’s currently one of the strongest single non-LB abilities in the entire game, since battle pot essentially negates every gcd and cooldown used to get the covered player low to begin with? Saying it’s a disadvantage to chase down a player running to pot that teammates can’t chase without dying? It’s an automatic lose-lose situation for the enemy team if you can identify and take the dives that you can survive to stop pots, since they have to either let you finish the player off or pull more players to peel you off, which is a numbers advantage for the rest of your team. You need to stop trying to use it as a comparison for your arguments, because anyone that’s ever played PLD even as low as diamond should know none of what your saying makes any sense

Honestly in general there’s.. a lot of stuff in your post that makes me think you don’t really know what you’re talking about. Like “every tank can live through burst” as if PvE role assignments actually apply to current ranked balance. Especially silly when we’re in the middle of comparing a blue dps that bursts itself for ~30% current hp between orogeny and onslaught to use its own burst, has no on demand DR, and has weak sustain without the enemy team grouping for you, VS the closest thing PvP currently has to an actual tank with both major shielding and dr on demand, consistent strong sustain, no health costs, and a way to redirect damage to yourself.

On topic, imo orogeny in general is a badly designed ability regardless of job strength, because it’s annoying and restrictive to use, easy to play around, and the payoff isn’t particularly satisfying. Warrior is just more vulnerable in playstyle atm than it necessarily should be because dumping damage on a warrior lowers orogeny damage and makes it too risky to use a lot of the time due to the fairly large self burst, and doing so has no real drawbacks as warrior also has no active DR to speak of. This is compounded by better players giving fewer opportunities for 5 man aoe memes, and better players being more prone to punish a warrior for being aggressive, instead of ignoring the warrior under the misconception that they’re somehow a brick wall due to being classified a tank in PvE

What kill pressure? I've already addressed this. Shield bash doesn't give PLD anything extra in "kill pressure" on it's own. Show me where PLD excels at CCing the enemy or bursting them down, as I stated before. You're literally better at having just about any other DPS with you, as they can apply "kill pressure" and are vastly better at it. Will a PLD work? Yes. But don't try and grasp at straws and make it sound like you're getting killings left and right.

What's your point about PLD having mobility? You going to kill the target with your 10k Potency? Again all tanks have mobility. I didn't say that PLD wasn't mobile.

Cover can... be a 100% net lost or force you to use additional resources due to taking double damage. I never contested that it was bad either. So yet again.... what's your point. Also...tell me another ability in PVP that can result in a 100% net lost. I didn't ask for how to use it. I'm pretty sure that I already have that down and better than you.

Chasing down targets? Lol k. Oh right, almost every other class is better than PLD for confirming a kill and stopping them. You didn't say nothing about someone drinking potions. But yet again, hopefully your DPS are doing their jobs, so you don't have to do it for them.

Going to ignore your 3rd and 4th post as it just screams that you don't know how to use WAR.

Also you still didn't tell me how WAR is "weak" to CC and how that it's the jobs "design flaw"

[Nanne]

PLD is probably the only tank people want to see in Crystal matches Cover lets players fully heal mid battle and PLD LB should pretty much be a won team fight unless something goes horribly wrong

[Ransu]

PLD is probably the only tank people want to see in Crystal matches Cover lets players fully heal mid battle and PLD LB should pretty much be a won team fight unless something goes horribly wrong

Tell that to the players who always run away from me after I cover them.

[Gserpent]

PLD is probably the only tank people want to see in Crystal matches Cover lets players fully heal mid battle and PLD LB should pretty much be a won team fight unless something goes horribly wrong

Cover definitely needs adjustments. The tooltip literally says "redirects *damage*", so it really should only redirect actual damage. Buffs, debuffs, etc should all apply to the covered target normally. Cover would still be a very powerful tool, but wouldn't allow blatant cheesy nonsense like sipping in the middle of a major fight.

All of the tanks are very good right now, but Guardian is way too effective as-is and needs an adjustment. Playing against a competent PLD is just a huge pain right now. Watching a PLD just wipe away everything your team did while their teammate sips is just... ugh.

[Gserpent]

Who says WAR are supposed to be in the middle of a fight?

[Ransu]

Who says WAR are supposed to be in the middle of a fight?

An aoe charge attack that stuns, an aoe follow up attack after bloodwhetting an aoe damage attack that applies a debuff and a cone aoe LB.....

You're on some kind of drugs if you think WAR isn't designed to be in the thick of it when all their tools are designed around being in the meat of the fight as a tank.