"balancing" some jobs

[Gserpent]

I’ve played a lot of NIN and I know for a fact that Shukuchi is hands down the best escape ability in PvP.

You're defining escape differently than me. Stealth is largely unreliable if you are being actively attacked when you teleport. If it breaks - and it probably will - you're just going to have the MNK or whatever dash right back to you and keep thumping you. It is an *excellent* skill but it's not a very good escape skill because its escape component is so unreliable. It's basically on par with Elusive Jump (more flexible but EJ breaks binds and snares.)

No.
- NIN’s 1-target burst very potent with a simple Bunshin>Assassinate>Mug>Mudra setup;
- NIN can AOE very well because of Goka being a 20K AOE dot;
- If their team is focusing a target, a NIN can simply Mug>Forked Raiju>Fleeting Raiju them for an instant 4 seconds-long double-stun, leading to an easy kill or a Purify burn.
- NINs worth their salt fight out of melee range 90% of the time which makes them the safest melee to play, especially when you consider shukuchi.
- Finally, if you don’t think NIN’s LB is a little busted, you’re probably a NIN main.

I mean, yes? You can literally just do the math, or just fire up ACT and spend a few minutes thumping target dummies. NIN has generally the lowest DPS of any melee, especially sustained, and that DPS becomes even lower if you force out a Meisui or Huton. NIN can do solid burst (typically Bunshin-Fuma-Mug-Edge-Assassinate-Hyosho) but their sustained DPS and DPS over time is substantially lower than MNK's and is equivalent at best to, say, RPR or SAM. NIN is also extremely twiggy if they go full nova and blow everything on burst - you're burning both mudras and your teleport to try and maximize damage output, which means you're meat for whoever wants you if it fails (or even if it succeeds, you might just get merked in return and turn it into a 4v4.)

You're right that NIN generally spends a lot of time at a distance throwing darts at people, but that's because they kind of have to. They aren't designed to get stuck in and things often go poorly for them when they do. At least compared to, say, a MNK. NIN LB is completely fine. 90 sec charge cycle and it doesn't snapshot, which means you can just pop a heal while the cast animation is firing off and the NIN just gets to pound sand unless their team can kill you in the few seconds Death Link lasts. Yes, it is *amazing* at sweeping, but that's literally NIN's job. They were a sweeper before and they are a sweeper now, too. If they have LB or are about to have it, play defensively and keep your HP topped up. Don't be greedy. It's fine.

I won’t entertain this statement.

Because you refuse to look at things holistically. WHM LB is incredibly overloaded because the rest of their kit is *garbage* compared to every other healer's. They get LB and they get polymorph and no one gives a shit about the rest because it's so forgettable. SCH, AST, SGE all have vastly superior kits to WHM and, arguably, have better LBs as well (SCH and AST are basically "we win this fight if you don't snap my neck right now") but on twice the charge cycle.

There's a reason WHM falls off *hard* in favor of AST in high skill games.

[IDontPetLalas]

@Gserpent
Just looking at your Post History shows that you are a troll, bad one at that. Trying to call my "skill" into the argument only augments the fact that your opinion is invalid, I'm on high diamond and most of my friends that play at high level are at 2k range on crystal.
The fact that you are taking SINGLE player's damage into consideration shows that you don't understand the nature of the game in a high level, in coordinated play you can EASILY dogpile a player and burst them in less than a GCD, it's not the single job that matters, it's the team's, CC is even more OP when you take coordinated play where you can easily bait a purify and explode someone after that.
And saying that DNC is strong in a coordinated team is the equivalent of saying it is good in "Catch the ball faster", we don't have a queueable mode with a coordinated team so once again, it is invalid for the current modes we have available.
All those jobs are meta for a reason, they are clear OP to a point that most players that are on top 100 are one of those jobs.
Anyway, not gonna entertain you and your attempts at trolling.

You realize that you just contradicted yourself? When it comes to WHM, you're stating that one skill is OP because it needs to be considered in coordinated play. On the other hand, when it comes to DNC, you state that it shouldn't be considered strong in the context of coordinated play since we don't have a mode with a coordinated team.


You can't have it both ways i.e. you either recognize that CC is in a coordinated mode or not, and Gserpent has made some valid points regarding the various jobs - if anything I would disagree with the comment rom Raraka about polymorph and cheats- that is a legitimate complaint but it has nothing whatsoever to do with balance.

[Ransu]

You realize that you just contradicted yourself? When it comes to WHM, you're stating that one skill is OP because it needs to be considered in coordinated play. On the other hand, when it comes to DNC, you state that it shouldn't be considered strong in the context of coordinated play since we don't have a mode with a coordinated team.


You can't have it both ways i.e. you either recognize that CC is in a coordinated mode or not, and Gserpent has made some valid points regarding the various jobs - if anything I would disagree with the comment rom Raraka about polymorph and cheats- that is a legitimate complaint but it has nothing whatsoever to do with balance.

WHM LB does a line attack for 18k potency, causes a stun, increases the damage the whm does to the target and increases its healing and gives a heal to the party.

DNC....charms the enemy team for 2s.......

To even try to make a comparison between the two is laughable.

[Petite]

[@Bureda] Sounds like you don't really know how to play NIN.

You're correct. He’s also the guy who reached Crystal after 800 played games.

While Gserpent’s comments make more sense if you read them like it’s Opposite Day, Bureda usually misinterprets people he disagrees with to cope.

"Apparently when a team focuses a person, the Ninja caused it. Damn that NIN kit is so busted!"
Try un-crossing your eyes and read again:
''If their team is focusing a target, a NIN can simply [double-stun], leading to an easy kill or a Purify burn''.
Where did I say NINs cause people to focus-fire? What are you on about?

"Ninja literally cannot stand toe to toe against other melee and has to kite."
Why are you dueling melees in the first place? Why aren't harassing squishier targets like healers and casters to screw up their effectiveness?
You treat CC like it's the Wolves' Den Pier duel arena.

These just provide more context to this post of yours:

.

I'm out.

Edit: Quote mistake

[IDontPetLalas]

WHM LB does a line attack for 18k potency, causes a stun, increases the damage the whm does to the target and increases its healing and gives a heal to the party.

DNC....charms the enemy team for 2s.......

To even try to make a comparison between the two is laughable.

Did you even read what I wrote before you tried to make a cheap point? I wrote that that you cannot provide feedback on one job based upon that CC takes place in coordinated play, then turn around and state that another job should not be considered in the context of coordinated play.

You either compare all jobs in the context of coordinated play or you do not- you don't mix it up. Is that any clearer?

[Gserpent]

WHM LB does a line attack for 18k potency, causes a stun, increases the damage the whm does to the target and increases its healing and gives a heal to the party.

DNC....charms the enemy team for 2s.......

To even try to make a comparison between the two is laughable.

DNC charms in an AOE for 2 sec, can be extended to 4 sec total, breaks Guard, and forces movement.

What happens when the WHM lasers someone with Guard up? Bunch of nothing. What happens when the DNC starts shaking their ass in front of someone with Guard up? They shashay their way right into the mosh pit and die like a chump. This is also why RPR has been seeing a *huge* uptick in play rates recently - it turns out that AOE "fuck you there's nothing you can do about it" is a *really* strong ability in a mode like CC. Like, you know how people bitch about Miracle of Nature being broken and disgusting and unfair because you can't Purify out of it and Resilience doesn't block it?

Yeah, DNC and RPR do that but it's in an AOE *and* it prevents you from moving (or at least, moving in a direction you decide.)

Honestly, I don't get the bitching about WHM LB. Every single LB, except for poor GNB maybe, is gamebreaking. AST gives their team 30% more damage and gives the enemy team 30% less damage and it travels with them. SCH pumps out a frankly absurd amount of healing with Seraph on the field. Bahamut does WHM laser damage in a *15 yard* AOE, follows that with an Akh Morn a few seconds later for more damage than WHM's Misery, and then proceeds to spit 6k damage at the lowest-health target in range. NIN can chain-neck snap people through Guard. WAR goes unga bunga and turns off enemy Guard for *15 seconds* (which is a guaranteed 30k damage on Cloud Nine assuming you have a pulse and know to save the LB for the next wind event.) PLD effectively gives complete and total invulnerability to themselves and their best friend and *50%* DR to everyone else. And so on.

Limit Breaks are all absurdly overpowered, by design. You have to look at the entire class holistically, though. Even if WHM LB is "overpowered," WHM as a whole is not. So it's fine.

[KickRox]

NIN: Highest versatility, and *by far* the lowest DPS of any melee. It's fine.

WHM: Polymorph is fine. No damage, doesn't prevent you from moving, long cooldown. LB is fine, WHM's kit between LBs is garbage compared to every other healer's, they are wholly reliant on landing big LB hits to make things work (which is why WHM falls off hard in high skill games.) They fixed the Cure 2 bug in the 6.11 hotfix. It's fine. They probably actually need Misery to go back to 12k because they currently have the lowest DPS output of any healer over time.

WAR: High DPS, high control, and they are by far the most fragile tank because of it after the Bloodwhetting nerfs in 6.11. Orogeny and Onslaught cost a substantial amount of HP and their sustain got nerfed, making them much more tricky to play. Unlike DRK, they don't get invuln with their LB. It's fine.

BLM: *Probably* overpowered now after the unnecessary potency buffs in 6.11a, but it's hardly gamebreaking. LOSing is very important against BLM because of how much time they need to spend casting spells. Standing in the open is a death sentence if there's a halfway competent BLM around. They should probably revert the potency increases, but it's otherwise fine.

DNC: Strong class, but it *needs* a coordinated team. Which makes it pretty unreliable in forced solo queue. DNC is extremely powerful if you have a competent DPS on your team, weak otherwise. It's fine.

GNB: Highest DPS tank, reasonably tanky, and even moreso after the buffs. DPS and Healer junctions are by far the best to use and they are also the most likely you'll have reliably. 20% boost to healing output from No Mercy is no joke, it's quite significant and means Aurora and the AOE healing procs can provide an immense amount of sustain for your team and yourself. GNB with DPS junction has DPS output equivalent to a melee DPS while being tankier than all of them except MNK, and has extremely high burst potential. It's fine.

No offense, man, but I think you aren't playing in high skill games. Pretty much everything you said is stuff you only hear low skill players saying.

^ bout sums it up.

I'd would contend that to say DNC is "fine" is a minor over statement only because while Serp's point is certainly valid when considering DNC in and of itself, when compared to the kit's of BRD & MCH a small tune on potency or a range buff to 20y would bring dnc's value closer to, if not equal to the others.

Also that BLM does need a small down-tune on flare/freeze potency, to say 10k rather than 12. Most keyboard-slammers are too lazy to find the vulnerabilities of BLM; for instance, that you can kill a BLM every 60 seconds on MNK with 3 buttons if your situational awareness if sufficient enough to wait until there's no yellow line above their HP bar in your party list.

But otherwise, if I had to guess I'd join Serp in assuming these arent top tier matches.

They are not trying to balance PVP. The devs are sick of having it in the game. The point of all this is to make it so broken, so hated, that they can justify removing it completely.

P.S. Thanks for this, I needed a good laugh today; but I don't have the energy nor the requisite simp-talk the explain the many.. many many many layers of what makes a statement like this so box-of-rocks brain-dead, other than to say that publicly traded companies like SE (SQNFX) tend not to use 8 figures of stockholder market capital on developing content that they want to eliminate.. but hey, who knows? Maybe they got to the top by spending millions on developing things they want to eliminate instead of just, ya know, eliminating it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Naphtha]

P.S. Thanks for this, I needed a good laugh today; but I don't have to energy nor the requisite simp-talk to explain the many.. many many many layers of what makes a statement like this so box-of-rocks brain-dead, other than to say that publicly traded companies like SE (SQNFX) tend not to use 8 figures of stockholder market capital on developing content that they want to eliminate.. but hey, who knows? Maybe they got to the top by spending millions on developing things they want to eliminate instead of just, ya know, eliminating it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I hope you're just posting under numerous layers of irony, cause if you are seriously coming after that statement and calling it braindead then I might just end up dying of laughter.

[IDontPetLalas]

I hope you're just posting under numerous layers of irony, cause if you are seriously coming after that statement and calling it braindead then I might just end up dying of laughter.

Let me know where to send flowers, because if someone thinks that a company with competent management would allow its developers to introduce content that is so poorly designed so that all of those costs can just be thrown away without any consequences ? I'd love to get a job like that.

[Lymberey]

4) Black mage is now added to the mix, 3 seconds freeze with a REALLY high damage output, shields and AoE freezes with a HIGH damage and gap closers with a HUGE burst. BLM needed a small buff on the dot potency, no idea who thought it was important to literally make BLM a unkillable CC monster.

To be fair, AoE potency and CC of Black Mage remains the same, 8k and 3s for 3 stack. So I believe what you were referring to was 12k on primary target, which is very high during LB.
However 10K is fair enough, 12k is a bit overbuff imo. It does help BLM a lot when dealing with solo target and people who spread out. They can make it hit less with 2 or more targets, but that would basically control the movement of the opposing team for the rest of game.
Does it make sense for BLM LB to be strong? i believe it does, as BLM LB is the most lengthy LB without immediate results while making the BLM an even more obvious target.

16k/16k on 'Burst' is a fair trade-off as it is a 0/5y spell with cast time and need to sacrifice positioning and a mobility option to use offensively, unless the target is diving or overextending.
BLM is far from 'an unkillable CC monster' because you still need 2 DPSs to kill a full MP Black Mage efficiently as before, or a skilled NIN. Still, it does make BLM harder to solo kill.
BLM is always a CC monster, but people chose to ignore them because BLM used to barely deal immediate threatening dmg, now they are almost guaranteed to get a mark on their heads. Not to mention the 'auto mark' coming from their LB.

There is no need for hardcore nerf to BLM, just a bit nerf or nerf with some buff to some aspect.