Arcanist and Summoner: a possible solution

[ThorneDynasty]

I understand the skepticism, but the key difference there is, that was a rework for a role, but this is a single job.

I can't set myself up for disappointment again, but you do you. I think people said the same thing about Monk and Scholar too though, and well, it looks like all paths lead down to either aimless path to identity loss or an endless loop of equally aimless reworks.

EDIT: I mean, I guess you can argue Scholar was just preamble to the whole healer role thing, but that just makes me worry more about the current DPS direction.

[Nizzi]

I still think they should've just separated SMN from ACN and kept ACN to lead to SCH. Despite the gutting of SCH's DPS kit, the rest of old ACN is still (mostly) there. Aetherflow existing as a button to gain Aetherflow, Energy Drain existing as a stack dump, Bio, Bio II, Ruin II functioning like it used to on ACN and SMN, and even Seraph is just a flashier, jankier Rouse. Even SCH's lore deals with plagues and how the Scholars of Nym searched for cures, which lends well into SCH having had Miasma and still having Bio; and PVP Deployment Tactics functions like Bane with Bio. I'd personally like for SCH to get more of old ACN back like Miasma, Bane and Shadow Flare, and for them to move SMN further away from ACN. SMN still having Aetherflow and Ruin is incredibly lazy, in my opinion.

Separating ACN from SMN and tying it to SCH would've allowed them to have two healers for new players to start with as well, which is a change the game desperately needs IMO for how obtuse unlocking SCH is, having AST locked behind HW completion and SGE locked to having another job at level 70. With all that said though, I'd support anything that would bring a more traditional DoT based caster gameplay back to the game. It's not right that they've killed an entire playstyle across SCH, SMN, and even BRD with DoT management and there's nothing in the game like it anymore.

[Raikai]

But how would the weapon be dealt with?

The suggestion of the OP is interesting, but is basically "promoting" a class to a job, however the class already was using books to begin with.

[xAFROx]

While the class/job thing is now a relic of the "past" it's too ingrained in the game now to alter. That's why SMN and SCH are still connected, despite being as seperated as possible without altering the code. If anything, this new Summoner rework allows them to add a new job that is DoT based.

Yes, that is true. The spaghetti code framework of 1.0 is still there and what everything is based around still.

I'm simply explaining what I perceived to be he answer to the question you placed towards the OP's idea is all.

Nothing from ARR is going to be without the base class to split up due to the coding.

[Cithaerias_pyropina]

Sounds a lot like Necromancer. Turn carbuncle into a spooky ghost or ghoul. Turn the egi-assaults into spooky dark magic words and change resurrection into reanimation and you got necromancer.

[5trange]

Thank you all for your comments people! I was a little nervous about this post but it seems it's starting to spark an interesting discussion. I'll try to tackle the various points that have come up by making a summary of them — I'm not going to quote or I'll end up making another 100k words post lol Feel free to bonk me in case I've forgotten something y'all thought was important.

1) No matter what you do, people are going to be unhappy about Summoner.
This saddens me a little and I strongly disagree. Sure, a perfect solution that has a 100% success rate is highly improbable, but I feel like the greatest obstacle in satisfying most people lies not with SMN itself, but rather the absolute alternative between old and new that has been forced on us: old Summoner OR new Summoner — the fact that different people can't freely pick what to enjoy is the core issue. And why is this alternative a thing in the first place? Because SE elected to completely erase an entire job and play style which (with highs and lows ofc) had been going on for years and years and was liked by many... not by everyone perhaps, but that is inconsequential. You just DON'T delete something so rich and with such an history to please people, especially when a better crowd-pleasing alternative exists — and believe me, if even I could think of it, the solution really is simple.
It also feels like a kick in Thal's b4lls that they would remove the pet DPS in an expansion which somewhat fixed the responsiveness of pets.

2) What would become of the relationship between ACN, SMN and SCH?
I hope I don't really have to confirm that I am aware Arcanist is the base class for the Summoner Job lol The whole post I wrote is precisely about that fact and why it's not good. The supposed 1.0 coding issue can probably be worked around as the only big thing required would be an additional "Arcanist-specific Job stone" to replace the Summoner one, which should now be treated as independent. Assuming we're in an ideal world where coding issues are not a big deal, I'd say the absolute best situation would be: a) Keep ACN as a class and upgrade it to an independent Job at 30 — you can call it however you want really, as long as the kit stays the same; b) Make SCH accessible from level 1, so people have two starting healers; c) Make SMN an independent "unlock-at-30" Job like AST, DRK and MCH.
In a NON ideal world however, the easiest route would be to just have all three paths branch from the base Arcanist and pretend you don't see half your buttons change/disappear when you equip a different job stone (this didn't seem to be a problem for SE in ShB, considering the desolation you experienced when you unlocked Scholar).
I'm under the impression that "the class-job system being too ingrained in the game" doesn't really constitute a substantial obstacle. Probably the most "annoying" part would be to create a couple of new job-related quests and a bunch of extra dialogue... if they really want to — it's not even mandatory tbh and people who just want to enjoy the job wouldn't even care.

3) What about Equipment?
I'd say just let this new-Arcanist share its Equipment with Summoner. Sure, you end up getting three book-wielding Jobs but... is that really such an issue? To quote a commonly used sentence in these Forums: "If you don't like books, go play something else gné gné" xD I mean, we have all kinds of swords and canes everywhere and I don't see people complaining. Heck: for the sake of simplicity you can even make them share Relic Weapons without much of a problem. The only thing that would be missing still is Artifact Gear sets for new-Arcanist but once again this is just something extra which I can freely do away with as long as I get to play with the old toolkit... and I'm sure all the Nier-glamouring catgirls would agree with me that this is not such an important aspect.

4) New Contagion is too much like NIN buff and that's dangerous.
Mmmh, point taken. I wanted to make something different from a generic party-wide damage buff especially since Summoner would still have its own Searing Light. I'll try to see if something that is still somewhat different comes to my mind, but I guess options in this regard are really limited at the end of the day.

[elioaiko]

Having basically mained SMN for this current tier and played older iterations of SMN, my opinion is mixed.

On one hand, this new SMN feels a lot closer to older FF where the summons are called down, do burst damage and leave. This SMN is no doubt how they want to take it going forward, having three staple summons and then rotating demi-summons. I do like this as it feels cohesive instead of a dot/pet mage. SMN never has been a dot mage in any Final Fantasy game and we all know how they feel about pets.

On the other hand, 6.0 SMN lacks a lot of complexity. Energy Drain/Aetherflow feels like a leftover and boring filler. Utility attached to demi-summons feel pointless as you're never going to hold Phoenix for the regens. Carbuncle is just a placeholder for other summons.

However, I do believe that they changed SMN for the better and the health of the job. They have a new template to work with. No hate to the people who enjoyed old SMN. There were more decisions involved and a lot more complexity to it. But the job was heavily disconnected. Dots have nothing to do with summons and the pet ai was atrocious. Pretty much in any MMO concerning summoners, the pets are glorified turrets. There was just far too much spread out and it just makes the job feel so disjointed.

I would like to see utility moved from demi-summons to mini-summons that are oGCD, like summon Moogle gives the party an AoE regen, Ramuh/Sophia causing a dot, Alexander to give a ST regen, Shiva for Painflare damage, etc. That way you there's filler that feels connected to the job fantasy. You're using big damage summons, but also summoning small versions of other primals to assist you.

Like someone else said, I believe SMN will never have a happy fanbase because people become attached to older versions (kind of like how AST mains go back and forth on card system).

[Saimeren]

That's a lot of words. Have a 1 paragraph TLDR version?

[DPZ2]

"Totally disassociate Arcanist and Summoner" the OP says. And yet, pet attacks listed for Arcanist still include the word "Egi" ...

"Merge Energy Drain/Siphon or Fester/Painflare" into one button the OP suggests, ignoring the fact that one is a single attack and the other is an AoE.

The reason this can never become reality? SE would have to write 40 levels of new jobs quests specifically for Arcanist, and rewrite 30 levels of both Summoner and Scholar new job quests in order to make it work.

[Dyvid]

(Snip

I'm sorry OP, but you wasted your time here. SE is never going to do this. If they did separate SMN from ACN, they would simply make it ACN > SCH. Their entire excuse for the "improved" SMN was felt that game engine couldn't support SMN's job design. So for them to comeback and add a job that they can't support isn't going to happen.

As a disgusted EX-SMN who is still looking for a new job to play, I feel this redesign was hastily done without any input for the community beside people who just wanted aesthetics over substance. But the chose was made and the only thing to do is add input to help in future development changes. Or just quit, still can't decide my choice on the matter. Either way I've accepted the old SMN is dead... unless they add a HW legacy server.