Balancing the skill point rewards of the Guildleve System

[solracht]

EDIT: Please make sure to read this post before replying against the idea itself.

To clarify: This is about Regional Battleleves, and about doing them to level up.

The problem

Currently, experience points are awarded for killing mobs in guildleves. Anyone who is playing can see what this has lead into: most players look for the guildleves with the highest number of enemies and purposedly fail the guildleve at the end so they can redo it on the next reset.

Personally I feel that for as long as we don't want to complete the guildleve (how many people here want the necrologos page to drop, which is the objective of the guildleve?), the system is failing. Gameplay based around (and rewarding) failure in guildleves is akin to how the old skill up system was - backwards.

The way experience/skill points are awarded also leads to a lot of guildleves being completely ignored, and this will not change even if they add new, interesting guildleves, if they don't give a lot of skill rewards.

Balancing guildleves individually would not only take a long time, but I also doubt it could be done well with all the variables involved in calculating the skill up rewards from leves (guardian's favor, links, stars). In the end, leves with a lot of mobs would still be best.


Something has to be done across the board:

The proposed fix

One thing they could do (and I'm sure there are a lot of ways to fix it) is giving all guildleves a set "pool" of experience points that will be rewarded at the end:

Every time you kill an enemy in a guildleve, the experience gained from killing the enemy is removed from the pool. At the end of the guildleve, the remaining experience points in the pool are awarded. This pool should be the same across all guildleves of a level range, and big enough so that only being really unlucky in getting drops would make the pool reach 0.

The Pool would be boosted by Leve-links, Guardian's favor, and Stars (just like they boost the skill points gained from the enemy right now).


A picture
Here's a visual aid, in case my suggestion is not clear: http://i55.tinypic.com/25txqow.jpg



What this change accomplishes

This would make most guildleves equal, except for the completition time. However, The difference between the time needed to complete two different guildleves, barring being really unlucky with some necrologos/drop ones, is minimal.

While some people would prefer to do fast guildleves with this change, those that simply did any guildleve that was offered would only waste 20-25 minutes per leve reset compared to them, instead of "losing" up to 50k skill points (or more, taking good links and other things into account) for taking this approach. There's also the option of making drops from guildleves have a 100% droprate once the experience pool has reached 10-20%.

This change also means that they could focus on guildleves with more diverse objectives and they can stop adding guildleves that are solely about killing mobs. This is one of the reasons why I think my suggestion is better than simply boosting the "bad" or "unpopular" guildleves. Also, while that could be done instead and we would still achieve the same end result, I think that'd be harder than performing a general fix like this.

Guildleve-link parties would also be more casual and laid back. Pressure would be relieved off having to have the "good" leves in order to be able to join. You could simply link what you have, and party up for what you have.

Lastly this change fixes a pretty important problem - currently, the best way to level up from 32 to 50 is in the same camp, doing the same set of guildleves over an over: in Broken Water. This is something caused by the things I mentioned in the first part of the thread. It's bad enough having to spend over half of your leveling in a single area, but in a single camp?



In closing

Please keep in mind, the intent of the system is neither to make our current experience points per reset worse nor better than they currently are. The intent is to let players choose whatever guildleves they want while getting said experience points. At the very least, this system should make us stop redoing the same 8 leves over and over. This could be accomplished by a lot of other ways, but this system keeps your array of options surprisingly huge (pretty much every guildleve that exists is viable for experience points).

If guildleve rewards were normalized, you would be able to see more variety without feeling like you're wasting your time for it. You'd be able to simply complete the guildleves that are offered, or even pursue the ones that you actually enjoy doing.

I honestly think that with this change, and enough guildleves added over time, the adventure could actually be about doing guildleves, rather than simply about doing them for EXP. I believe EXP would feel more secondary when engaged in doing guildleves, and it would help with the "feel" of the system. I think it'd definitely help to drag more mainstream players in, while not giving up our own unique system.



NOTE1: This is not anywhere near the only change the guildleve system needs. It is, however, a very basic one. There are more changes needed, but those are fodder for a different thread, and I'd appreciate if only skill up rewards were discussed here. This is just a start, just the barebones.

Let me explain: the way I see it is: what's the point of having 20 guildleve slots if there are only 6 guildleves worth doing? What's the point of adding more guildleves if I'm going to keep on doing the old ones every day? What's the point of a cooldown removal/change if I'm just going to repeat the same guildleves? I believe exp rewards should be adjusted first, and then more ideas should be built on a working system.

NOTE2: This thread is mainly aimed at doing guildleves for experience points or skill ups. If you're doing guildleves for item or monetary rewards, then you can keep on doing so under the new system. You're also getting guildleve variety right now, as the money/item rewards aren't tied to a specific guildleve, so both systems (current one and this one) work well for that approach.

NOTE3: Because someone will point it out: I'm using skill points and experience points as interchangeable terms. In all of the cases, I'm always talking about skill points (which are what matters in this game).

Thanks for reading, and please let me know if anything needs to be clarified, as English is not my first language.

[BlaiseLallaise]

For someone whose native language is not English, you sure do have a better grasp on it than some who know only English.

In regards to your idea, I like it. I agree with the problem, and your solution will likely take care of that. Your idea is likely to upset those who abuse this method for leveling up, but that doesn't negate your point. I hope the devs pay close attention to this thread.

[solracht]

Your idea is likely to upset those who abuse this method for leveling up, but that doesn't negate your point. I hope the devs pay close attention to this thread.

I do not think there's any need to upset anyone. People are used to a certain amount of skillups per reset nowadays, and I think the Pools should be made with that in mind. While you might not get as much from a single Dunesfolk for Dinner (rank 40 leve) under the Pool system, you'll probably get as much if not more from the entire Leve reset... since your 8 regional guildleves will give good experience point rewards.

The only people who might see a small decrease in skillups per reset are those that currently do 8 optimal regional leves per reset, but from what I've seen, they are not the majority. Most people stick to 5-6.

[Rentahamster]

The problem

Currently, experience points are awarded for killing mobs in guildleves. Anyone who is playing can see what this has lead into: most players look for the guildleves with the highest number of enemies and purposedly fail the guildleve at the end so they can redo it on the next reset.

There is an easier way to fix this problem.

• If you fail your leve (via time-up, or abandonment, or lost connection), it's marked as failed. You can do it again, but none of the mobs give you any SP when you kill them.

• You can still earn the reward for a failed leve. Just not any SP from killing mobs.

• When you accept leves at the adventurer's guild, you are not limited to 3 random leves. You can pick and choose from every leve possible at any given camp.

• Make adjustments to the leves (mainly mob type, mob count, and mob base SP modifier) so that they are all able to be completed in a similar amount of time, and yield similar amounts of SP.

This would require minimal work to achieve the same ends and give players more variety in the process. The first 3 points would be easy to do, and then all you gotta do after that is just boost mob count for all the other leves that no one ever does.

[solracht]

Thanks for the comments.

There is an easier way to fix this problem.

*list*

This would require minimal work to achieve the same ends and give players more variety in the process. The first 3 points would be easy to do, and then all you gotta do after that is just boost mob count for all the other leves that no one ever does.

Please keep in mind that your last point is difficult to achieve - avoiding that approach is the reason why I suggested the solution I did. While the technical part behind adding an EXP Pool may be harder than simply boosting current mob exp rates, achieving the same end result is way harder with your approach, as you have to take care of leves on an individual basis, while also taking into account whether extra mobs can spawn or not.

Just being realistic here, I do not think they'll be able to correctly balance guildleves if they try to "hand-craft" the exp rewards.

It also doesn't address the fact that most leves you'll do will still be about killing mobs. By using the "Pool" system, you give the devs a lot of freedom in what type of leves they can make, and which objectives they can attach to them, as the exp reward will be good regardless because of the Pool. All that'll change is whether you get most exp during the Guildeve (because it's about killing mobs) or at the end (because it has a non-combat part).

Your first two points wouldn't be needed under the Pool system, as you'd truly want the reward instead of being "forced" to take it. I'm impartial on the third point, and I'm sure eventually they'll let us pick more than 3 leves per camp... so I won't comment on that.

[Delmontyb]

This is an excellent idea! With anything some balancing would need to be introduced, but I too agree that having the objective set to "fail" kills the fun of the game. I love this idea, and hope that something like this (if not this) gets introduced into the game.

[Betelgeuzah]

This is a good initial fix.

[solracht]

I didn't clarify one of your questions, and I didn't mention anything regarding the other one. I'll edit the OP in a second, and reply here:

Mobs would not stop giving skill ups once the pool was depleted, however see these two comments:

This pool should be the same across all guildleves of a level range, and big enough so that only being really unlucky in getting drops would make the pool reach 0.

making levedrops have a 100% droprate once the experience pool has reached 10-20%.

Hopefully that clarifies how leves with high mob counts would not be particularly better than other ones. Either way, I'm fine with some leves being very slightly better - that won't make people carry 8 specific leves around. We carry 8 leves around because the difference between a good leve and a bad one is of upwards to 10k skill ups or more under the right conditions.


Now, on grouping: Just like base exp from mobs is multiplied by links, favor and stars, the pools would also be multiplied. Partying would be better than soloing, just like in the current system.

The only difference is how you would group up for any leve you liked, instead of specific ones that give a lot of experience points with the right multipliers.

[Shaone]

OK and are pools personal to each player? E.g. someone out of party bonus range would get less SP per mob, but have a bigger pool (left at the end)?

[Shaone]

OK so I'm not clear if this is proposing that once the pool is exhausted mobs continue giving SP. I'd assume not since then obviously the best leves would continue to be the best leves, unless you set the pool for every leve to give the highest amount of SP attainable on any leve under any conditions.

So unless I'm missing something, there is now no real incentive to push the stars higher, or form a large group, as the SP pool would just diminish faster, but for no greater reward.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, not sure I've fully understood.