Dragonsong ultimate, is machinist useless?

[Serenaya]

Play whatever you're most comfortable on. No use switching to something that actually ends up being a loss because you're not playing nearly as optimally on it. MCH, like any class, still excels in the hands of someone who's more comfortable with it than they are on BRD/DNC, let alone other jobs or roles. Meta is reserved for speedkills and perhaps the World First race in some aspects. Saying "should you though?" Like who cares, man. What a ridiculous claim to make that people just want easy logs or "nobody plays it for good reason". Perhaps people just enjoy playing MCH and RPR and end up in a group together. What a CRAZY scenario...

People parrot statistics without thinking about context.

- People could be holding damage
- There's two, 2-target phases that some jobs can pad better than others on
- They're short, burst-focused phases
- Extra gauge can be spent to help compensate for deaths that's otherwise being held for next phase

The list goes on.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

And you are correct, RPR is quite low compared to other melees.
But on the opposite of the MCH, RPR benefits much more from downtime (Soul Slice 30s cooldown on 2 charges, that would be like if Air Anchor had 2 charges) and benefits from Arcane circle.
It allows the RPR to have a better control over its gauges and cooldowns, allowing massive reopeners. In comparison, MCH only has Reassemble on charges and it only garantee a crit/dh.

RPR is actually valuable during full uptime phases.

On top of that, Arcane Crest remains valuable especially during healing check phases.
Despite being on the lower end of the melee DPS, RPR is able to bring valuable tools on the table.
The problem is that MCH doesn't even have RPR mobility or Arcane crest.

TL;DR:
It's an issue but not a big one since RPR brings something else than its DPS to the table.
It's a big issue for MCH as it only brings DPS and is by far the lowest of all 3.

That's a better explanation, thanks for that.

Then, how about this ?

MCH is a class based on mecanical tools and weaponery. Just by saying that, don't you think that the possibilities are endless ?

What if, we replace some of the useless Tool of the MCH, and turn them into something usefull for the team. boosting the DPS of the MCH, and increasing it's utility.

Bard, Dancer and MCH share a 10% AoE Mitigation. That's the only common point, because BRD and Dancer boost the offensive and Defensive ability quite a lot more. (Especially Dancer for the defense (Shield HP% Based and Heal) and Bard for the Offense).

Why not including the same little AoE Touret they got at SB (Can't remember the name), BUT not as a DPS tool, but as a Healing tool that pulse every 3 second (for like 12 sec) on a little area OR doing a shield pulse AoE (Just like the PvP one) ? (I don't think people will like this idea, but it can make something emerge in your head, so why not ?)

Replacing Flamethrower (It's still awful) by a new attack ? Give us the PvP Sniper ! (Lot of people will love that one, Pretty sure).

Now that i've said some hypothetical idea, let's get straight into the serious business :

MCH Downtime. adding charges on Air Anchor may not be the greatest idea, but I see where you are trying to go CKNovel. How about this one : Extend the CD of Drill at 60 second (and adjust potency), Increase Anchor CD at 60 sec (Adjust potency too and battery to 30). Doing this we match almost with Reassemble and be aligned with Chainsaw, allowing for a more powerful burst windows with Drill being the most potent out of the three.

Like this, the 2 minute burst windows feel much more powerful than it was, but it will give a hole into the "filler phase" where you will dps almost nothing with almost no tool to compensate, the only one being Hypercharge, this one will be in the burst windows due to the +50 heat skill every two minutes. Adjusting the DPS for this phase seems to be a good idea in order to balance the burst phase, reducing the overpowered burst phase and upgrading the "filler phase".

Machinist need to do 10 GCD in order to get 1 Hypercharge (Which mean almost 25 second between each one) and Hypercharge will last for 8 seconds with 5 Pyro-explosion at most (1.5 GCD for a total 7.5 sec). Therefore, each cycle is 32.5 sec, you can place 3 of them before the 2 minute burst. which seems to be quite alright I guess.

Replace Bioblaster and/or Flamethrower into utility tool :

Bioblaster change for Healing Smoke : Same effect as Bioblaster but reversed, healing allies touched by this for 50 Potency + a HoT of 50 potency for 15 seconds (giving a tool similar to the reaper, but with more flexibility to use)
Flamethrower change for Marksman's Spite (Snipper) : Casted attack on 1.5 seconds (2.5 GCD, and 120 second Cooldown), With a Potency equal of the 60 sec Drill and affected by Reassemble, giving a +10% damage dealt by the MCH for 20 sec. (Allowing to fit Hypercharge + Drill/Anchor/Chainsaw in the window).

What do you think ? I don't think my idea are that great, but at least, I think that could make quite the change ?

[SaberMaxwell]

Play whatever you're most comfortable on. No use switching to something that actually ends up being a loss because you're not playing nearly as optimally on it. MCH, like any class, still excels in the hands of someone who's more comfortable with it than they are on BRD/DNC, let alone other jobs or roles. Meta is reserved for speedkills and perhaps the World First race in some aspects. Saying "should you though?" Like who cares, man. What a ridiculous claim to make that people just want easy logs or "nobody plays it for good reason". Perhaps people just enjoy playing MCH and RPR and end up in a group together. What a CRAZY scenario...

People parrot statistics without thinking about context.

- People could be holding damage
- There's two, 2-target phases that some jobs can pad better than others on
- They're short, burst-focused phases
- Extra gauge can be spent to help compensate for deaths that's otherwise being held for next phase

The list goes on.

In this ultimate? Phases where someone can die and its recoverable at all are few and far between. Places where people are most likely to die are often followed by body checks that mandate all 8 players being alive and in place like strength and sanctity, or anywhere in nidhoggg outside, or anywhere in death of the heavens, etc. That argument for gauge barely applies in this specific fight.

Normally yes padding on two is padding but the phases where there are two targets have checks tight enough where it's warranted and a strength to be able to damage both targets simultaneously.

Short, burst focused phases give advantage to jobs based on timers rather than gauge. Summoner is almost always in one of their strongest phases whenever Thordan drops back down, whereas Red Mage only bursts at the start and end of Thordan due to its gauge based nature.

Of your list, only "holding damage" makes sense in context. You could hold damage from Thordan to use on Nidhogg who is a much tougher damage check, you could hold damage so healing cooldowns and such align...but this applies to all classes in that if we assume average damage for a job is low because of damage holding, then we can assume that to be true of higher performing jobs as well.

[CKNovel]

What do you think ? I don't think my idea are that great, but at least, I think that could make quite the change ?

Those are popular ideas.
Marksman's spite is already popular and a sniper rifle has been requested since Mustadio's Final Testament.
Flamethrower in need of a rework.

I personally agree with Bishop should be a defensive utility.
Air Anchor on charges was an exemple to compare with Soul Slice, it wasn't an actual proposal.

The problem with increasing Drill and Air Anchor CDs to 60s is that the filler window will be 1-2-3 spam. I do believe MCH gameplay is already too close to tank gameplay, doing so would make the gameplay very similar to WAR. And on top of that, every 60s windows would be way too similar.

As of 6.X, I believe if SQEX restore Dismantle, it would already be a very good bandaid until the bigger changes in 7.0.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

Those are popular ideas.
Marksman's spite is already popular and a sniper rifle has been requested since Mustadio's Final Testament.
Flamethrower in need of a rework.

I personally agree with Bishop should be a defensive utility.
Air Anchor on charges was an exemple to compare with Soul Slice, it wasn't an actual proposal.

The problem with increasing Drill and Air Anchor CDs to 60s is that the filler window will be 1-2-3 spam. I do believe MCH gameplay is already too close to tank gameplay, doing so would make the gameplay very similar to WAR. And on top of that, every 60s windows would be way too similar.

As of 6.X, I believe if SQEX restore Dismantle, it would already be a very good bandaid until the bigger changes in 7.0.

I didn't think of that, I should have noticed the feeling of emptiness in between burst windows with those proposal... But taking other into consideration, I feel like the bard feels way more empty when under Army's Paeon, because you'll have virtually nothing to do other than spamming your burst shot in order to make a refulgent arrow proc, which is Worse in my opinion.

Every Ranged DPS feel that way to me, you have phase where every filler window feel really empty.

You mentionned Dismantle, can you just remember me what it was ? Wasn't that an attack debuff on the boss in order to mitigate damage for the team ?

[CKNovel]

Dismantle was a debuff thrown at a single ennemy:
10% reduced damage, 5 second duration, 60 second cooldown.

If this sounds very strong, it's because it was very strong. Its main weakness was that you needed a target and was only partly efficient against multiple targets.
But those weakness paled in comparison to its strengths and flexibility.
In today's application, you would simply move a party mitigation to somewhere else if you can't target the ennemy.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

Dismantle was a debuff thrown at a single ennemy:
10% reduced damage, 5 second duration, 60 second cooldown.

If this sounds very strong, it's because it was very strong. Its main weakness was that you needed a target and was only partly efficient against multiple targets.
But those weakness paled in comparison to its strengths and flexibility.
In today's application, you would simply move a party mitigation to somewhere else if you can't target the ennemy.

It's not the high mitigation or the duration of dismantle that was strong, but the short CD, this explain a lot. Sadly, it's just like they have take this away in order to make Tactician the new Dismantle, while giving it to all Ranged. And that feel bad, or may I say horrible ?

I don't think Square enix will take away mitigation tool for Bard and Dancer, but they can definitely add some defensive tool to the machinist. Remember what I said earlier ? "MCH is a class based on mecanical tools and weaponery" Which means endless possiblity. Using tech in order to protect allies isn't impossible at all

For me, MCH need to get rid of Bioblaster and Flamethrower, and replace them with utility tool, either Selfish or Party wide. It's definitely possible

[Serenaya]

In this ultimate? Phases where someone can die and its recoverable at all are few and far between. Places where people are most likely to die are often followed by body checks that mandate all 8 players being alive and in place like strength and sanctity, or anywhere in nidhoggg outside, or anywhere in death of the heavens, etc. That argument for gauge barely applies in this specific fight.

There are actually numerous occasions where deaths can be recovered throughout the fight if it's fast enough. Recovery is a skill in itself, especially in prog. P2 Thordan is correct for the most part but you can recover the first half of Sanctity. You can recover DotH too. You're wrong, sorry.

Normally yes padding on two is padding but the phases where there are two targets have checks tight enough where it's warranted and a strength to be able to damage both targets simultaneously.

There are enough jobs that are capable of this that having jobs that don't isn't a problem. I'm not sure what your point is here. My point was that it skews statistics and jobs that can't seem undermined by those that can. It's false to claim that statistics bolstered by dual-target are automatically better, especially in Eyes for example where one eye can be pushed low enough for it not to matter while everyone then focuses on the other to kill it first. How every group deals with that is probably slightly different sure, but jobs that lack "padding" ability aren't automatically worse here. MCH for example has very high burst now, and can contribute greatly to the former point of lowering one eye before switching to the other.

Short, burst focused phases give advantage to jobs based on timers rather than gauge. Summoner is almost always in one of their strongest phases whenever Thordan drops back down, whereas Red Mage only bursts at the start and end of Thordan due to its gauge based nature.

Might be true, but it doesn't mean that gauge-based jobs are bad and learning to manage that according to burst timings and needs is once again a skill in itself. It matters. Why would I spend everything on the comparitively easy second Charibert/spear check when I can spend what I need to and then continue building for P5? If someone had weakness, their resources might be a mess which means someone else may need to compensate.

Of your list, only "holding damage" makes sense in context. You could hold damage from Thordan to use on Nidhogg who is a much tougher damage check

No DPS check is that tough besides the last one. It'll seem that way to start with because people are unoptimised and not as comfortable on mechanics. Once you've passed it enough (or wiped on it enough), people know what they have and when. Comfort + rotational optimisation/consistency lead to more DPS by itself from pull to pull. Some hold more than others depending on their class, so it's not a 1:1 correlation. Does it matter? Maybe not. But you cannot tell me this is the only part that makes sense lmao.

[Chopstix]

Play whatever you're most comfortable on. No use switching to something that actually ends up being a loss because you're not playing nearly as optimally on it. MCH, like any class, still excels in the hands of someone who's more comfortable with it than they are on BRD/DNC, let alone other jobs or roles. Meta is reserved for speedkills and perhaps the World First race in some aspects. Saying "should you though?" Like who cares, man. What a ridiculous claim to make that people just want easy logs or "nobody plays it for good reason". Perhaps people just enjoy playing MCH and RPR and end up in a group together. What a CRAZY scenario...

People parrot statistics without thinking about context.

- People could be holding damage
- There's two, 2-target phases that some jobs can pad better than others on
- They're short, burst-focused phases
- Extra gauge can be spent to help compensate for deaths that's otherwise being held for next phase

The list goes on.

let's be real, we r playing ultimate on content, we r gimped as is

things r already pretty tight, playing weaker jobs simply exacerbates the problem and makes it that much harder to meet the checks

in savage ur point holds true, as u can easily outgear the fights quite substantially in a few weeks so the above does not matter that much any more

however, outgearing ultimate? best u r getting is 5ilvls on everything but ur weapon in... the next expansion i think?

[Dyvid]

Well if given a choice, why bring a MCH to the party?

Look at it within it's core group, Physical Ranged DPS. MCH has DPS and a Defense buff where as BRD & DNC have DPS, Defense Buff, and Party Buffs.

Now look at it within the DPS whole. Why bring a MCH as your selfish DPS when you can choice SAM or BLM?

This isn't just a MCH problem, it a core game design problem that needs to be address.