It has been ZERO DAYS since a moderator actually did something in General Discussion

[Vav2021]

A lot of what some people read as 'toxicity' isn't even toxicity in the first place. It's just people dropping by to express their concerns with the direction of elements of the game, or they're simply saying their piece in a way that reflects their different background, personality and writing style to you.

I have to agree with you, my dapper-looking friend. Toxic is another one of those overused words that has somewhat lost its meaning as a means to label someone as something disparaging. Unfortunate, but it is what it is.

[RyuDragnier]

Toxicity in this case is being very unpleasant in a pervasive or insidious way. I don't know about you, but the constant negativity is VERY unpleasant, especially when it wasn't this bad last year. Hell, there isn't that much more to complain about than last year. I don't know what MMOs people are coming in from with this attitude, but dear god in heaven they must be some shit games.

[Theodric]

Each to their own, I guess. I care more about the message itself than the delivery and curate my own forum experience accordingly.

As for whether or not there isn't much more to complain about...that's largely subjective. The game is far from perfect and the development team have arguably burnt through a lot of their established good will as a consequence of some of their recent decisions. Square Enix as a whole has been plagued with controversial decisions as well - to say nothing of some of the tone deaf statements of late such as trying to shill NFT's.

The game is also getting pretty dated, so has more pressure to do more to stand out - but the lack of meaningful competition where the MMO market is concerned is dampening that pressure significantly.

[DamianFatale]

Regrettably, without sufficient moderation, posting about LGBT+ on this forum is a bait thread with a toxic subject. Even if the original poster has genuine good intent, all the anti-supporters and trolls come to it and the mods let it simmer for days if not weeks.

(Edit to add: This is not to say it isn't a bad thing that they choose to ignore so many other threads while closing that one. But they aren't just picking on a topic that gets discussed nicely.)

The thing is, they have ignored all the hate threads about women, toxic masculinity, and alt right views, but selectively picked the LGBT+ forum post to close. It's a common mindset that straight people have, and while it often means well, it can be harmful, and limiting to discussion. Often the haters will strawman the idea that they won, and got the LGBT+ thread closed. I already saw people saying that on here. The moderators should take a step back and make sure that they aren't just shutting down LGBT+ pages that get out of hand, but also shutting down the straight ones, or else you're just unknowingly adding to the piles of rampant homophobia, racism, transphobia, and sexism in our game community.

On top of that, they need to make a firm stance that homophobia, racism, transphobia, and sexism are NOT allowed period. We know its in the ToS, but unless they actually come out of the woodwork and say it once in awhile, these hateful minded people will often act like they are entitled to be awful to us for whatever stupid reason they can come up with. Like I said, even when its parody, it often mimics, and becomes reality. It's very common for things to be a joke for awhile, and then suddenly become real, or for it to already be real. I wish people were more aware of this, and made smarter behavior choices.

[Lyth]

...

I think the word 'toxicity' really undersells the issue because it's more than simply 'being negative'. On the most basic level it accounts for things like abusive language that are already directly covered under the 'Prohibited Activities' section of the ToS and apply when you're playing in-game regardless. On the more insidious side it includes various forms of online harassment including brigading behaviours, which while also covered under the 'Prohibited Activities' section, can be a more complex issue to define.

As an example, if someone like yourself were to post links to people's personal twitter accounts on this forum with the intention of inciting others to harass them online for their personal views, many people, some previous members of your own brigade included, would probably take issue with that sort of behavior. But it's not as obvious as hurling profanities at them.

And the frightening thing about this type of conduct is that if even the dev team members can be the subject of such targeted attacks, then it doesn't create a safe online posting environment for any of us. Which is why we need the dev team to have an open conversation about it.

[MagicPeanut]

I only made this account to participate in the Art/Screenshot contests they used to host, but now they don’t even do that anymore.

[VictorTheed]

The thing is, they have ignored all the hate threads about women, toxic masculinity, and alt right views, but selectively picked the LGBT+ forum post to close. It\\'s a common mindset that straight people have, and while it often means well, it can be harmful, and limiting to discussion. Often the haters will strawman the idea that they won, and got the LGBT+ thread closed. I already saw people saying that on here. The moderators should take a step back and make sure that they aren\\'t just shutting down LGBT+ pages that get out of hand, but also shutting down the straight ones, or else you\\'re just unknowingly adding to the piles of rampant homophobia, racism, transphobia, and sexism in our game community.

On top of that, they need to make a firm stance that homophobia, racism, transphobia, and sexism are NOT allowed period. We know its in the ToS, but unless they actually come out of the woodwork and say it once in awhile, these hateful minded people will often act like they are entitled to be awful to us for whatever stupid reason they can come up with. Like I said, even when its parody, it often mimics, and becomes reality. It\\'s very common for things to be a joke for awhile, and then suddenly become real, or for it to already be real. I wish people were more aware of this, and made smarter behavior choices.

Crazy thought here, but their use to be a people who had this thing called free speech, I know it's wild I mean who was there to censor them when they said something I didn't like, but anyways these barbarians use to say whatever they wanted as long as they weren't death threats.

I can't speak for others but I'm sure glad that free speech nonsense is on its way out, I mean it's worse then murder or physical abuse or people starving when someone sais something I think should be banned, sure glad things are different now, we're heading towards a better world my friend, one barbarian silenced at a time.

[Vav2021]

Crazy thought here, but their use to be a people who had this thing called free speech, I know it's wild I mean who was there to censor them when they said something I didn't like, but anyways these barbarians use to say whatever they wanted as long as they weren't death threats.

I can't speak for others but I'm sure glad that free speech nonsense is on its way out, I mean it's worse then murder or physical abuse or people starving when someone sais something I think should be banned, sure glad things are different now, we're heading towards a better world my friend, one barbarian silenced at a time.

[Vav2021]

I think the word 'toxicity' really undersells the issue because it's more than simply 'being negative'. On the most basic level it accounts for things like abusive language that are already directly covered under the 'Prohibited Activities' section of the ToS and apply when you're playing in-game regardless. On the more insidious side it includes various forms of online harassment including brigading behaviours, which while also covered under the 'Prohibited Activities' section, can be a more complex issue to define.

As an example, if someone like yourself were to post links to people's personal twitter accounts on this forum with the intention of inciting others to harass them online for their personal views, many people, some previous members of your own brigade included, would probably take issue with that sort of behavior. But it's not as obvious as hurling profanities at them.

And the frightening thing about this type of conduct is that if even the dev team members can be the subject of such targeted attacks, then it doesn't create a safe online posting environment for any of us. Which is why we need the dev team to have an open conversation about it.

I'll be honest, I have mixed feelings about this. I don't think folks should be targeted for their political views on their off-account, but I think that if they themselves make volatile comments on social media, it can very easily cause alarm to the ethics of the company itself as to "how could you hire someone like this?" One example is a previous game I played, they hired someone to write a couple of their books. People said the books were "meh" in quality, so it didn't get much attention... Until people looked at her twitter. She was a Leukophobic Misandrist. People looked at her, then they looked at the game company.


I think folks Should keep an eye on folks that are involved in the development of a game. Not harass, but be aware that they're ultimately involved in the game, and only if they start attacking the gameplay community, should it be brought up with the company. It's an extremely Sticky Wicket that can edge on cancel culture if not done with dignity and understanding, but it's an extremely bad idea to ignore the details of the people that work for a company. They could make or break the game in the future.

[Theodric]

I think the word 'toxicity' really undersells the issue because it's more than simply 'being negative'. On the most basic level it accounts for things like abusive language that are already directly covered under the 'Prohibited Activities' section of the ToS and apply when you're playing in-game regardless. On the more insidious side it includes various forms of online harassment including brigading behaviours, which while also covered under the 'Prohibited Activities' section, can be a more complex issue to define.

As an example, if someone like yourself were to post links to people's personal twitter accounts on this forum with the intention of inciting others to harass them online for their personal views, many people, some previous members of your own brigade included, would probably take issue with that sort of behavior. But it's not as obvious as hurling profanities at them.

And the frightening thing about this type of conduct is that if even the dev team members can be the subject of such targeted attacks, then it doesn't create a safe online posting environment for any of us. Which is why we need the dev team to have an open conversation about it.

I was unaware that I supposedly have some sort of 'army' at my beck and call! I can assure you that simply isn't true, though linking a comment made on a public platform such as Twitter is by no means equal to 'brigading'. I appreciate you helping to spread awareness that players who live outside of the Twitter sphere are not particularly well represented by some of the Western facing portions of the company itself, though! I daresay comments such as this are far better examples of harassment:

It's always interesting seeing the forums' take on characters.

Amaurotians: 'You sacrificed 75% of our population to a supreme deity, and now you want to sacrifice the rest of life on the planet to it? My life is a chip in your pile, ante up!'
Forums: 'Aww. Can we not save them, though?'

Emet: 'Let's trigger extinction level events in each of the star's reflections to free a supreme deity that we can sacrifice the remainder of these inferior beings to!'
Forums: 'Aww. Did he really have to die, though?'

Venat: 'I'll hold off this idiotic creation for a few millennia to buy time for the buns to invent space travel and for you to stop the Final Days (or run away and start a new life on another Aether dense planet, if you so choose). Good luck!'
Forums:
'Mary Sue!'
'Villain!'
'Why do you believe some random person who claims to be from the future anyways?'
'Why didn't you tell those geniuses on the Convocation the information you got from said random person who claims to be from the future?'
'Why did you have to be mean to Zodiark? Couldn't he save us from bird girl after he was fed the souls of all life on the planet?'
'Why did you have to take away everyone's god powers?'

Honestly, if I'd encountered opinions like that I would have sundered everything as well. Half of an INT score of zero is still zero, so they're honestly not losing out on that much.

Particularly that last line - fantasising about murdering people and flinging insults all over differences in opinion towards a fictional story? I'd say that's a more obvious, glaring problem than someone linking public statements.