Bard's future

[franklinwi]

Crossbows completely fail to satisfy the ranger class fantasy, as badly as the quickly abandoned macuahuitls failed to satisfy the PLD class fantasy. Think of the classic archers in fantasy and other popular media, and think of their weapons of choice. Robin Hood, Legolas, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, etc. I can't even think of a crossbow user other than Guts, and I hope you can agree that the class fantasy most associated with Guts is not, uh, ranger. Almost nobody wants crossbows except when brainstorming hypothetical ranged weapons. Archers and rangers need to use actual bows if they're spun off, or nobody will be happy with the result.

[SilverSkyway]

Crossbows completely fail to satisfy the ranger class fantasy, as badly as the quickly abandoned macuahuitls failed to satisfy the PLD class fantasy. Think of the classic archers in fantasy and other popular media, and think of their weapons of choice. Robin Hood, Legolas, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, etc. I can't even think of a crossbow user other than Guts, and I hope you can agree that the class fantasy most associated with Guts is not, uh, ranger. Almost nobody wants crossbows except when brainstorming hypothetical ranged weapons. Archers and rangers need to use actual bows if they're spun off, or nobody will be happy with the result.

I wont say nobody. I rather use a bow myself. A small reason, I'm not maining Mch anymore is I rather use a bow then a gun even though I like Mch rotation and oomph. But a Crossbow weren't be to bad. And A idea I had was have a cross bow/1h melee.

[anhaato]

Brd's future can be summed up easily: bleak.

I said this before the expansion dropped when we got the early tooltips for the 6.0 changes, that these changes were going to only upset older brd mains while failing to attract new mains. Plenty of people were combative but was I wrong? Those "I think these are gr9 changes" people became awfully silent when they realized it's now one of the less active, less fun jobs in the game. As is the case for all ranged. How can I confidently say that they're gone? Because people are still arguing over this shell of a ranged, but this time they're arguing over ways to improve it. The people who still care are either fighting tooth and nail for improvement or they've given up hope (me, for the most part), and the people who always hated the playstyle enough to remove the rng should've been playing other jobs to begin with. As they are now.

MisshapenChair's video from a few weeks ago perfectly sums up my issues with most job changes, brd just happens to be the one that hurts me the most because it was my main for my entire time playing. Everything about it clicked with me, the musical aesthetic combined with the active-reactive playstyle that kept me on my toes. Now... it has the aesthetic, for sure, but the playstyle is no more intricate than mch. Our weaves were cut in (less than) half for single target, and our aoe was brutally murdered. Sure we got more support, but at what cost? "Oh your buffs are too strong and you can move around so you're not allowed to do lots of damage so we won't let you press lots of buttons anymore!" It's this backwards-ass thinking that's ruining every job, but this is the one I feel most qualified (as someone who cleared ultimate on it) and compelled (as someone who used to main it) to speak on the most. Obviously there's an entire other role that's dying so I'll concede that the team should be focusing on improving life for them first, but when that's all said and done can we please have some flavor back?

"Didn't you literally just advocate for splitting the jobs?" Yeah? No reason we can't have two jobs with active-reactive playstyles in different roles. If I could play a healer with the aesthetic and level of activity (do not talk to me about ast, that's my second main) of SB-SHB brd, and then a rdps dot-oriented job that functions just about the same as brd does now, I would sub to this for LIFE and I'm not joking.

The 6.0 tooltips drop was a particularly painful night for me because the mediatour presented us with an iteration of brd that was the best of both worlds between its musical aesthetic and buff potency of SB, and its less crit heavy party-dependent rng of SHB (as if that was an issue to any of us though), the playstyle was just as active as before, even MORE active with a new superbuff to weave in and more enabling of BL/ROD spam due to far less lost procs. We were all SO excited because it felt like they listened to our every word for once, and then they dashed all of our hopes at the eleventh hour. Not just not making it any better than SHB, they made it ostensibly worse for those of us who enjoyed it in SB-SHB. The disappointment was, and still is, immeasurable. Obviously it wasn't to the degree of kaiten's removal considering we kept all of our buttons in the grand scheme of things, but god does it suck now. Sure its numbers are good but I ask of you this: who gives a damn about numbers? You know you don't give a damn about numbers as much as you claim to, otherwise you wouldn't have been playing a job you demanded better numbers for. When people demand better numbers for a job, it's because they enjoy playing it REGARDLESS of numbers but they want it to be either more rewarding or more viable (and yes, that's a valid complaint even if every job is viable).

I stuck with brd in SHB, why? Because its playstyle was still fun, even if I mourned foe requiem and refresh once a week. That's why I kept demanding returning or replacing our lost support, instead of giving up on it entirely. This time they did that, but now it's not fun anymore. That's why I've finally given up playing it. I say that but deep down I believe they can make it fun again which is why I get vocal about it every now and then. And it's not like that's even hard for them to do, the solution is literally to just GIVE US MEDIATOUR BRD! I don't give a damn if it means bloodletter has to be reduced to 20 potency so we're not brokenbusted, getting to spam it was FUN! The randomity of procs was FUN! If you didn't think it was fun that's your problem, not mine! Don't make it mine! Play a different job!

[Rika007]

Snip

With the amount of absolutes you just threw in there I have to counterpoint you here at least from my own personal standpoint. I mained BRD literally from day one of ARR, and SHB Bard forced me to drop the class. It was without a doubt the absolute worst iteration of the job I have ever seen, especially when it followed up SB Bard, which I still will hold up as literally one of the best designed jobs in the games history.

Endwalker Bard has brought me back to the class though, and I enjoy it. Does it reach the highs of Stormblood Bard? Hell no. Nothing does and if they ever wanted to go back to SB Bard I'd support it in an instant, but we know that isn't happening. But I will take it over the boring versions we had in ARR and ShB, and the janky poorly put together (albeit I will admit satisfying to master) Bard of Heavensward. Endwalker Bard still has a fun hectic burst window rotation, still is one of the highest APM's in the game due to it's high amount of oGCD's (it on average only lost one oGCD per minute from ShB Bard), has actually some level of micro macro optimizations with Apex Arrow/Blasting Arrow timings, and while none of the buffs are as engaging as Mage's Ballad/Foe's Requiem, it at least feels good to layer all those buffs together at once.

Probably helps that I've never liked Machinist's aesthetic and I REALLY disliked the changes to Flourish on Dancer to make it so there AoE's are no longer used in the single target rotation, but even then I still would have come back to Bard just because I really enjoy how the class plays again.

Still some things that I would fix with the job of the course. Full resets back on Blood letter would fix nearly half the issues I have on the job in an instant, and also cutting the cooldown times on all the songs so that we can deal with phase transitions better would be awesome too. But I'm very much completely counter to you, EW Bard brought me back to the job after Shadowbringers killed it for me. And honestly outside of these forums and one streamer, I've heard very little negative feedback on Bard in my time playing it. Heck if anything the nice thing to see is that unlike Shadowbringers, when I randomly queue into dungeons and raids now, I actually see Bards again, not just endless Dancers everywhere. People are playing the job again. That alone is a positive to the changes, after ShB when it dropped to being the lowest played job in the game not named MNK.

Tl;DR? For me Bard's future was bleak after ShB. EW BRD has actually given me hope for the job again that the dev team isn't entirely clueless on what to do with it.

[XRuecian]

I only recently picked up bard, i mainly play melee and tanks. However i have tried of most of the jobs a little. I quickly noticed however when i played bard that this job has a huge problem of feeling OLD.
There are so many redundant skills in this class that just feel like 'leftovers' from a past age.
This class more than any i feel needs a full rework.
I like the base idea of the class, but many things jumped out at me as feeling like bad design.
First off, the fact that Straight Shot is a Weaponskill (GCD) instead of an OGCD feels like a really odd choice to me. It doesn't feel very rewarding to proc a skill if you have to use a GCD on it anyways.
Sidewinder feels like a very uninspirational skill. It literally is just 'another' OCD to push every 60 seconds with no real kit synergy or reasoning behind it existing. (FF14 seems to have a lot of these extra copy-paste skills and i consider it bad design.)

If it were up to me, i would suggest that they merge Straight Shot + Sidewinder + Bloodletter into a single OGCD skill (and an AoE version) that you proc via Heavy Shot/Quick Nock, and increase the Proc Chance to 40-50%. You could let it hold 2 charges, and Mage's Ballad could still give you a free proc for each Repertoire. By doing this, getting the proc would feel more impactful (and more fun) to hit. And by increasing the proc chance, you won't lose that feeling of it being a Weaving class.
And when i say merge, i don't mean they need to merge all their potencies together into one skill.
They could spread the potency out into other skills or new skills so that overall DPS is still the same. It just feels like all of these skills serve the same purpose (OGCD) and therefore should just be the same skill period. This would free up a lot of space in the kit for them to add more interesting abilities rather than just copy-pasted abilities like this.

I don't really have a preference for if the class is DoT focused or not. But right now the two dots on bard feel like a joke. My healers single DoT has more potency than both of Bards DoTs put together. As it is right now, they need to decide if they want to make these DoTs have impact, or just remove them altogether. Perhaps you should be rewarded for keeping BOTH DoTs on with a potency increase, or something.

Overall i feel like this class is suffering from an identity crisis. Its as if SE just cant decide on if they want it to be a Proc/Weaving class, a DoT class, or a support DPS. They REALLY need to choose one, iron out its core, and then add on from there.
A lot of times, i feel like SE often misses the mark when it comes to a jobs FANTASY. A bard at its core is supposed to be a class that supports via music. This means that ideally, the music should be the CORE FOCUS of the class. However, the songs on bard right now are like 90% self-buffs with tiny party buffs on top. Your main party buff is Battle Voice, a skill completely unrelated to your song system. If they really want to deliver on the class's fantasy identity, they should remove Battle Voice and buff all three songs to have slightly better party buffs. And perhaps each of those songs should have some sort of rhythm you need to keep up with (by pressing certain OGCDs in sequence every so often to "hit notes") to keep the buff going. This way the class has some skill involved and actually would feel like your ability to PLAY THE MUSIC is what is supporting your party.

[Kazamaiya]

Snip

While i agree completely on some of the things you said, i feel like i should add somethings.

A: Straight shot is old in design, yes. But it's flavourful design and quite different from what many other jobs have. Of course having other GCD buttons would be fun, but making Straight Shot/Refulgent a OGCD without any GCD replacement would make BRD's GCD rotation extremely one-note and downright boring. Many people for different jobs don't like spamming a singular button ad nauseum and using Heavy/Burst shot more than we already are might be too excessive to the people who play BRD.

B: Sidewinder used to have more things to it in Shadowbringers (and in earlier expansions too). It feels dull and like a placeholder NOW because DoT's apparently aren't allowed to exist or be central to a jobs gameplay. It had synergy, it always has had synergy in every iteration outside of this one wherein it's damage increases on how many DoT's you have on the enemy. It wasn't much, but it was something. If every arbitrary 60s OGCD DPS button should be removed, then so many other jobs would suffer from it, not just BRD. It's a thing many jobs have just because.

C: The proposed merged ability, while an interesting idea and concept. In execution with how BRD plays currently, it would be a disaster and would only reintroduce a problem that they tried to fix in EW (overcapping on Bloodletter).

D: the DoT's have always been a part of BRD's gameplay, they influenced the songs and procs in prior expansions. I agree they're a joke now though, the Media Tour did the DoT's better than the final release (of EW) which is sad to see. I would not be surprised to see them being removed next xpac because EW made them obsolete despite no one asking for such a change in the first place.

I completely agree that BRD currently feels like it has a huge identity crisis. It's Fantasy is weak and fragile as all our offense is archer based and we have weak hits with passive buffs that aren't really felt. We need more Song based skills, be it hard-hitters or just skills we use regularly. They really need to decide not just what the job's fantasy is, but they should try to figure out if it should be a DoT proc job like in the past, a support DPS, just a proc job, or if they should try something new alltogether like in HW wherein MP was used.
I just figured i would add my thoughts here, thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[ThorneDynasty]

Having just started to level Bard again, I feel like the basic issue with the job fantasy is how passive the songs feel. Mage and Wanderer honestly feel like they are working the wrong way around - Rather than randomly dictating RNG procs where you are passively reacting to what is supposed to be you singing, wouldn't it make more sense if you had to actively maintain your song? Because it seriously doesn't feel like a bard job where you are actually doing the singing, the songs are just something happening beyond your control and you are just reacting to their effects.

[CasterSvarog]

If there’s two things that I’ve grown to dislike more and more since Endwalker was released. (Other then the general changes I’ve learnt about that Stormblood had, because those all sound really neat)

They completely dropped the ball on Mages ballad. They came so close to getting it right during the media tour. All they had to do was give it a third stack and nothing else. But then they did do that, but proceeded to remove the reason a third stack was needed by removing double procs, and only have the proc remove half the timer. This honestly ruined that song from the fast pace ‘random bs go!’ into nothing notable. For goodness sakes, Armies Paeon is stronger then Ballad now and that’s so fundamentally wrong.
This also leads into the other issue, how the dots are being phased out of jobs in general, especially with Bard. Sidewinder doesn’t deal extra damage against enemies with dots, and dots not affecting songs anymore. Given what happened to Summoners dots I’d be surprised if Bards dots last into the next expansion at the best. There isn’t even a need to use dots in Aoe anymore just because it’s not worth the gcds.

Bring back the need for dots, fix Ballad into the fun machine gun ability it was, give the proc chances back to the Dots, maybe keep the base proc chance that songs have just to help with moments of poor rng. And as time goes on bring back some of Bards old utility, those would be neat. Heck, maybe add in some of the pvp additions, those have a lot of potential.

[Matrinka]

Endwalker bard just feels bad. It was my main, and most favorite, job for every expac. I even loved the HW bowmage bard. For the first time ever, I started gearing up my heals before bard. It just isn't fun to be so busy, do so little damage, and feel like there is very little spontaneity about playing with it. I miss how speedy and fluid everything felt while having good damage. That is missing right now.

[AntriosVeron]

BRD is the first job I’ve played where something just doesn’t feel right.

Per the FF14 website, BRD is a DPS job that can “fortify the spirits of their companions.” I love hybrid DPS/support classes in other games, so I figured that it would play like a “utility” DPS. Maybe I was wrong, because as soon as I started to get to levels 50-60 I began to feel like something important was missing. I’m finding BRD’s core mechanic—the songs themselves—really underwhelming.

As I leveled, I expected my songs would be the main way I provided utility to my party. In the end though, there’s little difference between the three. It feels unimportant which stat (Damage, Direct Hit, Crit) I’m increasing because it all amounts to a flat damage boost—and they aren’t even significant. Having three songs that do the same thing is boring gameplay. All it does is make some songs clearly better than others. A focus on damage also forces a comparison between BRD and DNC, the latter of which gets to clearly see its contribution to the party due to healing + the significant buff provided by dance partner.

I’ve found no incentive to use a specific song in a specific combat situation or party composition. The three songs may as well be personal DPS cooldowns for the BRD instead of major group buffs, because the only real differences between them are how they affect which abilities -I- should be using—which runs counter to the whole notion of a support-focused DPS. My party is just along for the ride. I feel like I’m giving up personal DPS for group buffs that aren’t worth it.

I would find BRD so much more engaging if there was just a little more flavor to the individual songs. For example, why doesn’t the “Mage” Ballad do anything that helps casters? I have heard that this song used to restore mana, which makes great sense conceptually and is exactly the type of utility I want to bring to a group. Healers aside, jobs like DRK or BLM would love to have a party member that can restore a little MP. Similarly, is there really nothing else that Army’s Paeon could do? Maybe it could focus its buffs on things that melee DPS find useful (nullifying directional inputs?), while Wanderer’s Minuet could give extra damage reduction for tanks. I don’t know, I just wish they had effects that rewarded the player for using them situationally depending on what’s happening around you or who is in your group.

That’s all. I know that there are people who really like this job as-is, and I’m not trying to detract from that. Not all jobs will appeal to everyone, and that’s fine. I also know that BRD is effective in whatever type of content you want to bring it to. I’m not debating that it “works” just fine. That said, despite how much I like BRD conceptually, this is the first job I’ve played since starting this game that has felt incomplete.