Bard's future

[Kazamaiya]

Hey, Bard Main (since Stormblood) here with some thoughts about BRD in it's current iteration as well as the future of the job.

Discussion and just generally engaging to make us BRDs seen is welcomed and of course encouraged.

With the Changes made to BRD in 6.0+, one thing has become quite clear to me. it appears the job is moving away from it's DOT gameplay for the future. Be it with a rework next xpac or just a removal. (All songs no longer using DOT procs to gain repertoire and even Sidewinder's damage being increased when you have DOTs up have all been removed).

This obviously is worrying to me and likely quite a few BRDs out there as DOTs have always been a big part of our gameplay and identity for years. Be it five or nine years.

And of course while certain Quality of Life improvements are of course something to strive for currently, i do believe conversing of the future of the job is important to get out there as recently there have been worries of the jobs in this game becoming easier and 'homogenized' more and more ever since the changes to SAM and NIN in 6.1

Personally i would like to see our Songs (Mage's and Army's specifically) being more involved, our DOT's continuing to exist and interact with our kit as well as a sort of reintroduction of an MP management system with a Musical themed burst skill in it to better fit the Bardic theming the job has been feeling lacking in, but that is simply my opinions.

Share yours.

[aveyond-dreams]

Given the recent controversies with patch 6.1 I ended up resubbing to FFXI and naturally I got a chance to revisit that game's Bard, along with a number of other jobs. Granted I do not own nor will I ever own the entirety of FFXI Bard's list of songs, but it feels great using the ones I do have in order to buff my party and debuff my enemies. Almost like a support class!

Current Bard is still too much of a mess with its (alleged) niche being taken over by Dancer. I hope at some point we get a 4th ranged dps so we can have 2 support (Bard and Dancer) and two selfish ones like Machinist so that this class can finally feel like what it's supposed to be. I miss the days where singing Mage's Ballad to regen mana felt impactful back in ARR, along with Foe Requiem until those skills were changed completely if not outright removed.

In terms of dots, it is only natural for a music-based class to have some kind of association with damage over time. The problem is that multi-dotting dungeon packs was a nuisance without a Bard equivalent of Bane, and for a significant portion of the levelling experience having the dots be tied to song procs makes for unimpactful gameplay. Once you make it to higher levels this resolves somewhat, but back in Shadowbringers I still found myself waiting on procs that just never came.

When I use a song, I want for there to be a damage buff which is as strong as Dancer's or effects on par with Scholar's Expedience movement speed boost mid-battle. I want to be rewarded for maintaining debuffs like Foe's Requiem - not some cheap knockoff poisoned arrows or random wind attacks. The "arcane ranger" spin some of those attacks have are also atrocious, I'd rather arrow skills be arrow skills and music skills be music skills than trying to mishmash the two together in ways like Apex Arrow.

Please just let Bard be an actual Bard. Let a future Ranger job take over the archery part with a crossbow and be done with it. Unhappy marriages of conflicting concepts like this don't make for good results in the long run. I imagine someone will eventually come in and try to bring up lore - I'm well beyond having the patience for arguments like that when the job doesn't deliver well on either front. FFXIV's Bard is a failed Robin Hood/Dragon Age Leliana Concept that needs to address its shortcomings.

[MPNZ]

Um, most of this still applies...

This mostly just going to be a list so...

1.) DoTs and Procs: The overall proc rate is very consistent to the point of being an extremely boring and totally uninteresting design. And, the removal of procs from DoTs, while an attempt to cut down it's opener, leaves little to no incentive to apply, reapply, or just remember they exist. I literally have to remind myself to apply them. They're completely unnecessary to the entire kit, and are basically only slightly bellow sidewinder because it's an OGCD. They could literally just delete these three and no one would notice. Multi-procs were like way more exciting for me, but the RNG was totally not. So this is like: One step forward and two steps back

2.) songs: Armies Paen is only good for it's buff, which should be designed as something to keep up throughout the cyclical song rotation. So, implementing an effect that, let's say, reduces the remaining CD timer for songs by like half or so as a part of Haste's effect or an OGCD ability. It would definitely make the class more active again. BTW, is BRD still singing just for itself? That's still not good, if so...

3.) Sidewinder and shadowbite: Oh, this change definitely move Shadowbite into the safe-zone! I love what you guys did with this rotation, totes! It's so good, but Sidewinder is still useless to the rotation.It's like silence shot. An extra button to press that's not really needed in the rotation. Shadowbite's animation is still ugly and slow, and it should have an the same effect as bane to reduce the need to multi-DoT

4.) ladonsbite: An ugrade to quick knock was way overdue, really. Just not at lv82, and being less impressive in aesthetics and sound than quick knock

5.) TY, for giving Bloodletter stacks. Also, read "1.)"....

6.) Nature's minne, troubadour, and Wardens: Warden's just needs stacks, a reduced CD, and cure III's AOE radius. Nature's minne is still just really inconvenient to use, and it still applies after the healer's have topped off whoever receives it. You guys might want to make it like troubadour or give it stacks too. And, troubadour really should be something we have to keep up as much as possible, but it's still useful as it is, so...

7.) Role skills: status effect skills are useless in PVE, and interrupts are just not going to be used because the whole role is just so naturally busy, which is why they're fun. You guys will never be able to get this role to pay attention to interrupts or see any use in heavy or Bind after you released PVP and nerfed them into ground to any level of popularity. The design just doesn't facilitate their use, at all. And, interrupts definitely have it the worst of them all, IMO...

8.) The new buff is great, and I'm really loving it. But, it would be nice to be able to use it more often

9.) Apex & Blast Arrow: They're still uninteresting and still GCDs. You should definitely make it more like PLD's confitiour combo that would cycle through the seven elements that would apply a unique DoT for each element at half the GCD as normal

10.) Button Bloat/consolidation and other notes: Raging strikes and barrage are still most likely candidates for consolidation, Sidewinder is completely unneeded, and Battle voice really should be a trait at this point. Mages ballad could apply "rivers of blood" like "Armies muse" to help with Armies Peaen's issues. Pitch perfect's action should still be usable after the song duration instead of deleting it's stacks entirely, and only generate stacks during Wanderer's minuet. Repelling shot needs to be reworked into something that's more generally useful like "back hopping" from fighting games (the distancing is perfect though), and the CD's for like abilities in the role need to be reduced, or given a unique GGCD as a whole. Make sure that blood letter doesn't animation lock or be be interrupted by it. And, BL's reset-cancel issues still worry me a bit after being mitigated with stacks, so if you could: please make sure it never occurs while testing it's builds for expacs and stuff...

Ok, I thinks that's everything. A few of these issues lead to dungeons giving me excuses to just be totally inattentive at the 60-75% range, and It's really hard to remember most of the visual details like boss and dungeon designs

And, the changes to PP are way out of touch, so just reverse that, please


As for BRD: It's always one step forward, and two steps back for some reason. And they keep making adjustments in the vein of "Bow Mage" every odd expansion, which is just adding ranger skills that don't play with the overall kit, and then in even numbered expansions they fix what was added. It's still better designed than the 5.0 version, but totally suffers from the same issues a AST'c cards with consistant, but super boring to play and raises questions as to why it exists, like sidewinder, which seems to add even less for "reasons". It would be better to replace it with flourish and give DNC and MCH a back-hop too. The damage could be readjusted into RA or something

[ExcogEnjoyer]

Please just let Bard be an actual Bard. Let a future Ranger job take over the archery part with a crossbow and be done with it. Unhappy marriages of conflicting concepts like this don't make for good results in the long run. I imagine someone will eventually come in and try to bring up lore - I'm well beyond having the patience for arguments like that when the job doesn't deliver well on either front. FFXIV's Bard is a failed Robin Hood/Dragon Age Leliana Concept that needs to address its shortcomings.

I hate when people say this, because more often than not its just incredibly thoughtless. Splitting Bard and Ranger would be the death of both those jobs. Ah yes, Bard, a class who's identity revolves around its pure utility, in a game where utility has all but been removed from the game entirely. And Ranger, a selfish physical ranged dps, really swell. Lets check on how Machinist is doing real quick- and its a dead class that's getting locked out of PFs for its dogshit dps. Congrats, you've made a Bard even more flavourless than the one we currently have AND a DoA phys range. Excellent.

[Absimiliard]

Bard will at least keep us entertained while it warms the bench.

[Dyvid]

Share yours.

My thought is the Current Battle Director hates DoTs for some odd reason.

[VentVanitas]

I hate when people say this, because more often than not its just incredibly thoughtless. Splitting Bard and Ranger would be the death of both those jobs. Ah yes, Bard, a class who's identity revolves around its pure utility, in a game where utility has all but been removed from the game entirely. And Ranger, a selfish physical ranged dps, really swell. Lets check on how Machinist is doing real quick- and its a dead class that's getting locked out of PFs for its dogshit dps. Congrats, you've made a Bard even more flavourless than the one we currently have AND a DoA phys range. Excellent.

You don't get it, man. If we shot lasers out of a trumpet instead of a bow, we would be a "REAL BARD."

/s

[aveyond-dreams]

"Oh no Bard is only songs that do buffs/debuffs" ok so give them a song that deals direct damage and give them songs that are dots.

"Oh no selfish classes like MCH don't deal enough damage" ok so fix their damage and buff them. Same goes for Ranger, give them arrow skills that don't look and hit like faerie princess magic.

These are problems that have actual solutions that are not far beyond the realm of anyone's reasonable imagination. Bard isn't delivering well on either front now, and resolving it's 8-year long identity crisis will help pave the way for something better. Close minded attitudes like the one above do nothing to help fix the situation and only prolongs the time until the class reaches the disaster state that then necessitates a rework.

[ExcogEnjoyer]

Hey man, I know you don't like Bard, but have you tried playing a different job? All their songs deal direct damage already. The problem with making a pure bard is that UNIQUE utility does not exist in the game anymore and would leave the job feeling woefully lacking. Surely you understand this very basic concept, right? Making it fart music wouldn't solve anything, and would really only make it worse.
MCH and all physical ranged classed WILL NOT EVER deal enough damage to put them on the same level as melee classes, this is a deliberate design decision by square enix to prevent people from locking melee's out of party finder groups.
And what happens to the bow weapon type? You know, the thing that Bard has been using for a decade now? Would that just get deleted entirely? This is what I mean when I say people who wish to separate Bard and Archer are thoughtless.

[aveyond-dreams]

words.

Thank you for misinterpreting what it is I'm asking for. You think I'm asking for a Bard that does nothing but buff and debuff while I want one that functions as a full class with an accurate job fantasy. Songs that do everything. Bard can keep it's bow for all I care as an ornament or for 1 or 2 arrow skills that they should have long stopped receiving ages ago. If you want the ranger fantasy, I hope they add ranger for you along with crossbows etc. You've done nothing to sway me away from my position.

At least the people who argued in favor of poison-mage Summoner had more depth to their arguments. Bard is the perfect candidate for being this game's dot class. So why are their dots being thrown out the window in favor of more meaningless magic arrow skills? Why not just have given them their Bane equivalent and lay the long-standing issue to rest already? Why does every song besides Radiant Finale feel so unimpactful, yet Dancer's buffs feel so much better? These decisions make very little sense.