White Mage Pig ability too OP

[Saucy_Jack]

More of an issue with purify immunity and damage snapshotting in kill windows being janky due to how this game seems to handle it, that causes miracle to be frustrating. Not miracle itself necessarily. Those issues just compound to make CC that can’t be reacted to really obnoxious.

I don’t know if this is common knowledge, but damage in PvP appears to snapshot right after the ability is used (rather than when the animation indicates damage is applied), and if you snapshot damage when someone is low enough for it to kill, they die no matter what regardless of what happens on the screen after that. I see it all the time with atonement having a really long animation before the damage tick applies visually. With animation delay + lag, there’s times where I see someone drop (and it gives me kill credit) almost a full second or so after I use atonement, when they’re 10y away from me because I just started walking away knowing the snapshot already killed them, with animation showing they died in guard/with recuperate health/on top of a health kit.

With purify jank on multiple CC being thrown at someone and kill damage snapshotting, miracle not being something you can react to opens up a bigger kill window than people seem to realize, since it’s very common for multiple players in higher ranks to throw CC at someone coming out of a sheep to try to chain and kill. There are odd times where you get sheeped from well above half health and die with no way to react due to a combination of purify jank and damage snapshotting favouring attackers. You shrug and move on because it happens once in a while, maybe think about whether it made sense to position more defensively to mitigate that risk a bit, but it’s certainly not good gameplay.

I don’t know if this calls for a nerf to sheep so much as more emphasis on fixing purify so it doesn’t turn a minor problem into a major one.

[JanVanding]

It's fine. Purify *does* give you immunity to CC covered by Purify afterwards, too.

The WHM Poly ignores all anti-CC effects.

Read Purify and Guard, Miracle of Natures Poly effect is completely immune to CC negation and removal, why?

Because it's not listed on Purify or Guard.

Why it's a favourite of Scripters because it's a free negate anything, including Limit Breaks.

[ReiganCross]

The WHM Poly ignores all anti-CC effects.

Read Purify and Guard, Miracle of Natures Poly effect is completely immune to CC negation and removal, why?

Because it's not listed on Purify or Guard.

Why it's a favourite of Scripters because it's a free negate anything, including Limit Breaks.

You CAN actually Guard Miracle of Nature, it's not listed on Guard, but it's listed on Miracle of Nature that it doesn't go through it.

The problem is that most people rely on Purifying a debuff AFTER taking it, not Guarding it pre-emptively. Mainly because Guarding is too obvious so nobody is throwing CC into it, which means Guarding is just wasting 5 seconds while people gear up to kill you when you get out of it.

And what's worse is that if you Purify the Stun coming from Purgation, you're not then protected from Miracle of Nature coming out of that, which allows your ass that just came out of a Stun to be immediately focused down by Seraph Strike + Misery.

[Gserpent]

The WHM Poly ignores all anti-CC effects.

Read Purify and Guard, Miracle of Natures Poly effect is completely immune to CC negation and removal, why?

Because it's not listed on Purify or Guard.

Why it's a favourite of Scripters because it's a free negate anything, including Limit Breaks.

Maybe you should read what I wrote? I literally said "covered by Purify." Miracle of Nature is not covered by Purify, so of course it isn't covered by Resilience. Neither is Charm or Hysteria, for that matter.

Guard will block poly just like it blocks most other CC effects (Hysteria and Charm force you to stop guarding, however.)

I really wish people would stop whining about poly and just learn to play better. It's really not an issue unless you're being an idiot. If the WHM hasn't used poly, then you need to play defensively until you force it out. It is not even remotely overpowered.

[JanVanding]

Maybe you should read what I wrote? I literally said "covered by Purify." Miracle of Nature is not covered by Purify, so of course it isn't covered by Resilience. Neither is Charm or Hysteria, for that matter.

Guard will block poly just like it blocks most other CC effects (Hysteria and Charm force you to stop guarding, however.)

I really wish people would stop whining about poly and just learn to play better. It's really not an issue unless you're being an idiot. If the WHM hasn't used poly, then you need to play defensively until you force it out. It is not even remotely overpowered.

Read the damn tooltips.

stop spreading Disinformation and pretending it's a L2P issue WHM abuser.

Edit: As for Miracle of Nature will not trigger if you are under the effect of guard

1. Nobody is going to throw it if you have guard already up, they'll wait til it drops
2. If they throw it on tick rate if you try to proactively guard, Poly will still land and you will lose guard for your trouble

Guard is meant to be a proactive counter, but you can't Proactively counter something that is an instant cast and will 9/10 times tick rate favour the Poly because Guard does not trigger instantly but Poly does.

[Nanne]

Read the damn tooltips..

What was wrong in their message? You can't Purify imp and you can't imp a player who has Guard up

[JanVanding]

What was wrong in their message? You can't Purify imp and you can't imp a player who has Guard up

Nobody is ever going to throw Miracle of nature on someone whom is already in guard, if they do, they won't get very far.

Miracle of nature is also 1 frame to activate
Guard is 2 frames (arm raise, then guard activating)

Guess which one gets the priority if both are used at the same time?
And that's before we even take server tick rate into account.

[JanVanding]

You CAN actually Guard Miracle of Nature, it's not listed on Guard, but it's listed on Miracle of Nature that it doesn't go through it.

The problem is that most people rely on Purifying a debuff AFTER taking it, not Guarding it pre-emptively. Mainly because Guarding is too obvious so nobody is throwing CC into it, which means Guarding is just wasting 5 seconds while people gear up to kill you when you get out of it.

And what's worse is that if you Purify the Stun coming from Purgation, you're not then protected from Miracle of Nature coming out of that, which allows your ass that just came out of a Stun to be immediately focused down by Seraph Strike + Misery.

Tick rate says nope. That's the other problem

So even if you preempt it, you still eat it and lose your Guard for your trouble.

Why I think it needs a similar "prep" timer like deep sleep has, where you get drowsy and can guard to ensure deep sleep doesn't trigger.

[Saucy_Jack]

Telling people to guard preemptively as a counter to miracle of nature doesn’t make any sense. There’s too many situations where you’re in a moderate danger of getting hit by it if you’re involved enough in the fight to be useful to your team and not griefing them. You can’t just guard just in case all the time since not only are you not doing anything else during guard, in higher ranks randomly wasting your guard puts a giant target on your forehead that says “free easy kill if 3-4 players swap onto me”. Which they will.

Guard a lot of the time is a reactionary measure when you start seeing damage come in or you’re otherwise in danger in a telegraphed way (rooted inside magma ball aoe is a common example) and is only a proactive measure in select cases where you’re very very clearly in danger of getting focused due to positioning/lb/playing aggressively to secure a kill

[ReiganCross]

Telling people to guard preemptively as a counter to miracle of nature doesn’t make any sense. -snip- .

Oh yeah, I'm citing that you CAN Guard against Miracle, I'm not saying that you should somehow learn how to use actual real-life Echo to being able to actually pull it off.

Not only the tick makes it nearly impossible to pull off, which might even end up ghosting your Guard because this game will consider the cooldown pressed even if you didn't get the effect, but you'll also more often than not just... Not get Miracle'd... Because the WHM has more than 2 braincells and can see the huge blue ball that you've become. So he just watches your buff bars, wait for Guard to be over and attacks right there, knowing that you can't Purify anyways, so you're now a free kill.

I just mentioned that the guy above said that Miracle is immune to Guard, and that's wrong. Yeah, bad tick will destroy your guard from Miracle, but the chances are the same that you'll get a good tick and waste the guy's Miracle just as well. It's still not a viable strategy, though, not while Guard functions as it does.

I personally think that you should be able to pop Guard the same way you can pop Purify, straight up out of a CC into Guarded stance. Because few things feel worse in this PvP than Purifying yourself, getting your Resilience, but having to over-lap that Resilience with a Guard because you also need to block damage. Bonus point of Guard Holmgangs you (Can't drop bellow 1HP while inside Guard) which won't save you that often, but can create some interesting situations like preventing DoT deaths. Then again I feel more things should DESTROY your Guard, and things that already break guard should also apply the WAR's Guard-Break debuff. So the Idea would be make Guard BETTER, but also make it more vulnerable to more things, like SAM's LB, MNK's LB, hell maybe even some stuff like GNB's LB could destroy guard and apply Guard-Break. Even some regular hits like MCH's Drill could drop you out of guard instead of damaging you inside of it.

I also believe that not only should Resilience last 10s instead of the current 5, but it should work as a goddamn Fetter Ward so you can use it pre-emptively. Instead of HAVING to clear something with it for it to actually give you your Resilience, otherwise you straight up lose the cooldown into the void.