If we don't get to explore and rebuild more of Garlmald, it will be a waste.

[MikkoAkure]

We’ve also had numerous quests etc about how sexually violent and brutal the ala mhigans were/are, and the domans. That did not stop us whatsoever in helping them now did it? They’ve said since the very first lorebook the way they are today is due to the shitty things that were done to them, and this expansion even cemented this in the reaper questline where we get even more backstory and are shown they were no more than peaceful farmers. Also how was his story retconned? I thought the allegations were always just headcanon by weird players and never confirmed that they had any sort of relationship of the assumed nature.

So you're defending the Garleans from doing bad things by saying that some Ala Mhigan refugees and a handful of nasty Domans did it too?

And how does getting booted out of the farms 800 years ago give you a pass to not only conquer an entire continent, but completely destroy cities on other continents that had literally nothing at all to do with that in the first place? It would have been one thing if they stopped at Corvos, but how do Dalmasca, Doma, Nagxia, Bozja, Ala Mhigo, Dravania, and the rest of Eorzea have anything to do with the Garleans losing their lands almost a millennium ago? Nhalmasque and Landis might be in the way between Garlemald and Corvos, but how do Werlyt and Terncliff have anything to do with it on the opposite side of the continent? Reconquest and retribution are just the tools that an Ascian used in order to weaponize a technologically advanced people's resentment and make a fighting force that would kill as many people as possible and spread chaos in order to cause a Calamity or two. Without Ascian interference, the Garleans would not have reached as far as they did. They were literally created in order to destroy the world.

By your own measure, then the Garleans got what was coming to them anyway because their city was destroyed like how they destroyed Doma, Bozja, and Rabanastre so those parts of our alliance got their revenge for what happened to their own homeland.


In regards to Gaius and Livia, there was a scene in ARR where Gaius turns to her and says "My quarters... one hour...", which in combination with Livia's speech later on owning his dreams, ambitions, body, and soul, it looked like it was going in a certain way. I'm far from the only person who saw things between the two in that light, especially with how suggestive the dialogue in the original game was. There's nothing in that scene that gives direct context for them having something sexual going on behind the scenes, but there was nothing to suggest that he was inviting her to his room to do some private military strategy either and at the time all we had to go on was the dialogue and how she acts in regards to him.

That aside, his character needed rehabilitation in order to show up out of the blue and be "on the side of good" and he suddenly went from "we'll speak later, Ascian" to abandoning his entire legion in Eorzea and deserting the military in order to hunt down and kill Ascians.

[KageTokage]

Even the Lemures disagreed with how the ambitions of the Garleans swelled from simply wanting to reclaim Corvos to trying to conquer everything, to the point where one of them tried to forcibly put an end to it by attempting to assassinate the emperor.

That said I'm kind of hoping they get involved with whatever plot surrounding Corvos turns up.

[Cleretic]

What problems would those be. They were on the verge of freezing to death when we got there. Instead of taking the help that was offered they decied to use their last bit of fuel to launch a futile attack. Self inflicted wounds aren't our problem and Gauis being there would have made it worse.

Sorry about the delay on this one, was VERY busy yesterday. But keep in mind I'm speaking to the WoL themselves, not the Ilsabard Contingent. The Contingent were important in providing supplies and expertise to get people back to a livable state, as well as being a relay of communications between the remnants of Garlemald and the abroad Legions, but until cracking open the Tower of Babil the WoL as an individual mostly just made people mad and got people killed. You can call those 'self-inflicted wounds' and have a point, sure, but the fact remains that if all the WoL did in Garlemald was hit the Tower of Babil, slightly less people probably would've died. I'm not saying the WoL was a bad influence on the whole thing, but it's pretty visible that they were not exactly winning support.

And yeah, it would've been even worse with Gaius around.

[thegreatonemal]

I know they do. I’m pretty sure the real answer is that everyone lived there and the Garleans got kicked out. Thus everyone technically has a claim on the land and they are correct. If we care about ancestral claims on land in the first place. The current residents (tribe plus whoever else lives there) displaced the Garleans. Which on the face of it seems to have been morally wrong. But it also happened 800 years ago (I think???) and I don’t believe in holding people responsible for things their ancestors did, so I don’t necessarily care about land claims like that. Wars happen, people run or migrate, you can’t do anything about it except endeavor not to repeat it in the here and now. It’s up to the people currently alive to be better and not repeat the mistakes of the past.

So I don’t think Garleans have a right to Corvosi land just b/c they got driven from it however long ago by people who are no longer alive. But I do think the Garleans need to resettle in a more hospitable place if they are to survive, and they have ancestral ties and apparently emotional attachment to Corvos, so that’s gonna be where they’d head. And I don’t think I’d be ok with telling to go pound dirt back in the glacias, essentially (re)ostracizing them and leaving them to die when they are actually in need. It’d be wrong, and also kind of stupid. It’d decimate any chance of good will from them and prime them to remain on a war footing towards the rest of the world forever more.

They’re already down, kicking them won’t do anything but ensure a lasting enmity. And you don’t end up with peace with that. When possible, we should make our enemy our friend after a war is over so that we don’t have another. Look at the US and Japan, for example. They sucker punched us to start the fight, they committed some horrible war crimes on both us and our allies during it, we caused mass casualties to end the fight. But a decade later and they were our friends again, with relations only having strengthened and improved since. B/c the side that won chose to make the side that lost their friend instead of exacting punitive vengeance that would leave only resentment. (Basically the opposite of what was done at the end of WW1 and led to WW 2 in the first place.)

Guarentee there would be voices on the corvosi side of things calling for vengeance against the Garleans. And there’ll be at least some Garleans who won’t want to “deal with the savages”, though not Jullus’/maxima’s faction and they’d be the Garleans we’d be aiding with anyway. Anyway, I’m sure there will be that conflict and I’d imagine that would be what we’d have to navigate as players.

Where they are now is hospitable, they made it such with their fuel source. They wouldn't keep their capitol there if it wasn't.

[thegreatonemal]

Sorry about the delay on this one, was VERY busy yesterday. But keep in mind I'm speaking to the WoL themselves, not the Ilsabard Contingent. The Contingent were important in providing supplies and expertise to get people back to a livable state, as well as being a relay of communications between the remnants of Garlemald and the abroad Legions, but until cracking open the Tower of Babil the WoL as an individual mostly just made people mad and got people killed. You can call those 'self-inflicted wounds' and have a point, sure, but the fact remains that if all the WoL did in Garlemald was hit the Tower of Babil, slightly less people probably would've died. I'm not saying the WoL was a bad influence on the whole thing, but it's pretty visible that they were not exactly winning support.

And yeah, it would've been even worse with Gaius around.

They talked about this when Gaius showed up. Hardly anybody knows what the WoL looks like. They don't have a face to put to the name.

[Cleretic]

They talked about this when Gaius showed up. Hardly anybody knows what the WoL looks like. They don't have a face to put to the name.

It's not even that the WoL is recognizable that's the problem (although they actually were, the First Legion had people from the Praetorium, so the description reached), it's more that the WoL is very intrusive and intimidating. Remember the sisters that died running away from them; it wasn't that they recognized who it was, it's that they were afraid of a foreign warrior busting down their door no matter who it was.

[thegreatonemal]

It's not even that the WoL is recognizable that's the problem (although they actually were, the First Legion had people from the Praetorium, so the description reached), it's more that the WoL is very intrusive and intimidating. Remember the sisters that died running away from them; it wasn't that they recognized who it was, it's that they were afraid of a foreign warrior busting down their door no matter who it was.

That doesn't happen until the legatus points us out to his troops. They were afraid because they thought they would be made to suffer for what they had been doing. They did try to get use to steal supplies from a bunch of non natives up there.

[Alleluia]

Where they are now is hospitable, they made it such with their fuel source. They wouldn't keep their capitol there if it wasn't.

Well, no where where you can freeze to death 24/7/365 is hospitable, really. It’s made *habitable* when they have fuel, tech, and intact infrastructure. It was not when they lacked those things when first driven there, evidenced by many people having died. And that was presumably when they had some warning and planning going into moving there. Now the Garleans, at least around the capitol, are potentially back in a very similar survival situation to their ancestors.

Or the game will just treat it like the sidequesting in Broken Glass for the Ilsabard contingent is enough and no Garleans will be looking to relocate. /shrug. I don’t think the infrastructure we restore there is enough long term, personally, but who knows.

[MikkoAkure]

Well, no where where you can freeze to death 24/7/365 is hospitable, really.

All of this just happened to have happened in the winter. Eorzea Encyclopedia and a few extremely missable passages of dialogue suggest that Garlemald thaws out in their short summers, which at least makes it more habitable than Ishgard currently is.

[Cleretic]

All of this just happened to have happened in the winter. Eorzea Encyclopedia and a few extremely missable passages of dialogue suggest that Garlemald thaws out in their short summers, which at least makes it more habitable than Ishgard currently is.

It seems like the Garlean winters are much harsher than Ishgard's, though. Aside from Minfilia needing to put on a coat, Ishgard's cold was never pictured as especially harsh. Meanwhile, the cold of Garlemald is depicted as an ever-present danger; finding persistent sources of heat is a big deal, and even an Ishgardian (albeit a pretty sheltered one) is found shivering at a fire.

Which one is more hospitable is kinda up to how well Ishgard is handling how the shift in climate affected stuff like food production, but I never saw any actual issues with that, so I think they're fine.