They Should Add An Official Damage Meter With One Condition

[UkcsAlias]

Do you really think someone is gonna write the essay required to specify target dps thresholds for each job

Yes! And not just a little bit, it will be with an excessive amount of detail explaining why the treshold is made that way. They will probably even mention optimal values on a per dungeon basis because they know the total HP existing in those, and all sorts of phases.

And they will even be rewarded for doing that by getting constant references towards their guide, and the ads on the site will ensure that it remains up.

With luck it will only go as far as icy-veins in showing builds and recommendations, but i suspect that some groups will make large excel sheets with statistics and parse information from that. And to give you an idea: Heroes of the storm while it was already dead after the HGC death, still had people refer to hotslogs for information about optimal values. And there people only just complained if you took a healer that on average has 10% less healing (yet in that game individual skill does a lot). Icy veins in that with their advise was often even that bad, that you should be discouraged from using it at lower ranks (they demanded low level players to use things they simply cannot manage).

Thats why DPS must be prevented to be measured. Its not going to be helpful, and only just cause hinder. A good player isnt measured by average performance in regards to DPS, its in performance in regards to completion speed. Even if you consistently do 20% less damage, but your team on average ends up 10% faster, you are doing a very good job.

[Shurrikhan]

...

Icy-veins created some largely singular, one-size-fits-all guides per HotS character (which, by the way, they're pretty open about) --which is really just to say, they didn't go though the trouble of making multiple separate guides per character-- and thus all measurement is bad?

I think you've skipped a step or three in that reasoning there.



Yes, people can be overly fixated on minute advantages. You know they do when they don't information, though? They fixate on presumed advantages, believing them to be still more sizable and relevant than they are to an even greater gap from what is reasonable.

Remember Stormblood before fflogs switched from raw DPS to rDPS as their primary metric (you'd have to go to xivhero and link the particular fflog for it to calculate the rDPS)?

People would swear up and down that NIN/DRG/MCH/BRD and SMN/DRG/MCH/BRD were by far and away the best comps because of their "synergy" and that anyone trying to play Monk, Samurai, Black Mage, or Red Mage, even in their optimal teams, were "kinda griefing, bruh." Turned out the jobs' rDPS, though, was actually incredibly balanced by late Stormblood; the presumed "advantages" that were pushing people towards particular metas, fell between inexistent and irrelevant. And that would have been common knowledge if people actually looked into the numbers instead of assuming that the more "selfish" jobs couldn't possibly make up for their rDPS debt with their raw numbers.

Not only looking, but understanding. You're making the assumption that numbers like this will be properly understood and utilized by people.

It was a difference of having a number (the numeric value of buffs applied minus buffs received) or not. That was it. One chart included the number/factor that the other lacked.

Seeing jobs' rDPS might still underplay the value of "selfish" DPS (as those who do half the work of giving the buffers their rDPS contribution by maximally exploiting those buffs), but it's no rocket-science to go from looking at one chart without those numbers and still thinking "SAM might be doing stupid high damage but it's all fake and they actually underperform Bard" to looking at the other and seeing that, no, even when given no credit for exploiting those buffs, SAM is still doing just fine for the moment. You can take A and B (the ability to exploit buffs and the ability to, at net value, give them) and very easily eyeball job balance from between the two graphic organizers given to you. Those chart's conclusion, at the time: All jobs were actually way more closely competitive than they were rumored to be.

Granted, it still took almost another year just for people to stop treating a lack of raid buffs as an incurable disease just because those numbers be scary while ill-informed maxims are apparently not?

[Saraide]

Yes! And not just a little bit, it will be with an excessive amount of detail explaining why the treshold is made that way. They will probably even mention optimal values on a per dungeon basis because they know the total HP existing in those, and all sorts of phases.

And they will even be rewarded for doing that by getting constant references towards their guide, and the ads on the site will ensure that it remains up.

With luck it will only go as far as icy-veins in showing builds and recommendations, but i suspect that some groups will make large excel sheets with statistics and parse information from that. And to give you an idea: Heroes of the storm while it was already dead after the HGC death, still had people refer to hotslogs for information about optimal values. And there people only just complained if you took a healer that on average has 10% less healing (yet in that game individual skill does a lot). Icy veins in that with their advise was often even that bad, that you should be discouraged from using it at lower ranks (they demanded low level players to use things they simply cannot manage).

Thats why DPS must be prevented to be measured. Its not going to be helpful, and only just cause hinder. A good player isnt measured by average performance in regards to DPS, its in performance in regards to completion speed. Even if you consistently do 20% less damage, but your team on average ends up 10% faster, you are doing a very good job.

Well then, get going on writing those essays. Meanwhile normal people will just set an ilvl, set duty complete status, kick people grossly underperforming and be done with it. I have to warn you though that by doing that kind of PF essay writing "skip soar or disband" is going to look like a mild blunder compared to your essay writing.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Until it becomes "you can't join our group unless you can do "X" damage. Then it becomes gatekeeping.

Not quite convinced. That's like saying gatekeeping a low performing student from advancing their study to next degree is bad because they could not meet the minimum passing average grade. Allowing them to just advance when they can barely do well on lower degree will only frustrate both the student and their teacher.

The same is also true for statics recruitment and in-game content that presents you a minimum passing grade that is DPS check, which mostly only matter in high ends. One can be a deadweight in normal to lower end content and they'll still get their clear with the help of 3 to 7 other players thanks to how those encounters are designed to begin with---hardly anybody cares in there.

[LeonKeyh]

Icy-veins created some largely singular, one-size-fits-all guides per HotS character (which, by the way, they're pretty open about) --which is really just to say, they didn't go though the trouble of making multiple separate guides per character-- and thus all measurement is bad?

I think you've skipped a step or three in that reasoning there.



Yes, people can be overly fixated on minute advantages. You know they do when they don't information, though? They fixate on presumed advantages, believing them to be still more sizable and relevant than they are to an even greater gap from what is reasonable.

Remember Stormblood before fflogs switched from raw DPS to rDPS as their primary metric (you'd have to go to xivhero and link the particular fflog for it to calculate the rDPS)?

People would swear up and down that NIN/DRG/MCH/BRD and SMN/DRG/MCH/BRD were by far and away the best comps because of their "synergy" and that anyone trying to play Monk, Samurai, Black Mage, or Red Mage, even in their optimal teams, were "kinda griefing, bruh." Turned out the jobs' rDPS, though, was actually incredibly balanced by late Stormblood; the presumed "advantages" that pushing people towards particular metas, feel between inexistent and irrelevant. And that would have been common knowledge if people actually looked into the numbers instead of assuming that the more "selfish" jobs couldn't possibly make up for rDPS debt with their raw numbers.

Not only looking, but understanding. You're making the assumption that numbers like this will be properly understood and utilized by people. In my experience that hasn't been the case. Even the people who ENJOY parsing which SHOULD have a high amount of people that understand what they're looking at (relative to the full community) don't have any understanding of what numbers are and what they mean and the actual differences between them (and the complexities of different systems).

They don't understand the swing that can be caused by crit chance which differs by job since some jobs have autocrits now. They probably don't understand the 5% stat bonus in parties and how that effects things.

You're ultimately just "arming" people who don't understand what statistics/numbers mean with information that they can use incorrectly. For an example of that, look at the last 2 years.


rDPS has been a great addition to show just how balanced things are for sure, but that doesn't mean that people will understand it.

Personally, I would love for it to be added because I LOVE trying to improve my gameplay and I'm a console pleb so I have no way of truly measuring what I'm doing. But, I completely understand why it will never be added and I agree with the reasoning. Too many people would abuse it.

[LeonKeyh]

If a petty thief, a shoplifter, gets run over by a car... is he a victim?

I'd say yes. You can be a criminal ANd a victim. The people have broken a fairly minor rule with very minimal harm to others. So yes, the punishment from SE is justified. But the targeted harassment of the community was not justified. And thus I'd say yes, they qualify both as rulebreaker and victim. And while their punishment should hold... as I said earlier in this thread, the people who orchestrated the harassment campaign for no reason? They should be banned too. Because they're far worse for the community and harassment is DEFINITELY also against the ToS. Including using 'reporting' as a form of harassment.

If you follow the thread of cause/effect, everyone can be a victim and everyone has someone who is ultimately the cause of their victimhood.

Why is that person stealing? Is it because they were born into a poor family? Why was that family poor? Systemic economic issues?

Same line of thought can be done with parsers:

Why is someone parsing? Because the game doesn't give enough information about how well you're playing? Why doesn't it give that information? Because people have been known to abuse it in the past? Why have they abused it in the past? Because people play multiplayer games with no intention of getting better and ultimately leech off the other people they're playing with? Why do they have no intention of being better? Because the game doesn't do a good job at fostering improved gameplay?


The difference is that there are clear signs "If you do X, then Y will happen to you." with the ToS. Someone aware of that who makes a decision to still do it, in my eyes, is no longer a victim of anything except their own poor decision making.

[Minarisweet]

Gotta love the echo chambering in this one.

[VerdeLuck]

The mask fell off pretty quick on this one. I guess it just goes to show it was never about having tools or self-improvement. It was always about gatekeeping PF/DF and beating other players over the head with what you think are low DPS numbers.
I thought the echo chamber said the casuals were the toxic ones in this game?

[Saraide]

The mask fell off pretty quick on this one. I guess it just goes to show it was never about having tools or self-improvement. It was always about gatekeeping PF/DF and beating other players over the head with what you think are low DPS numbers.
I thought the echo chamber said the casuals were the toxic ones in this game?

Except beating other players over the head with dps numbers is against harassment ToS, gatekeeping PF is already being done and a good thing and I havent really seen much about DF mentioned in here because that's pretty irrelevant with the lack of enrage timers and the general ease DF duties have. You might ask what's the point of asking for an official parser at that point and I agree, the community already has a better solution and an official version would lack in quality compared to the years of development that went into ACT, FFlogs and xivanalysis.

[VerdeLuck]

gatekeeping PF is a good thing

It can't be understated both how wrong this is and how much the developers disagree with this at a fundemental level based on past interviews and answers.
Before you start typing out some poor comparison to item level or duty completion, no those are not the same as gating based on a 3rd party tool or needing to do x damage or kick.