They Should Add An Official Damage Meter With One Condition

[Payadopa]

What do you mean "start"? Toxic people have been doing this since day 1, parsers have nothing to do with people projecting their own insecurities.

Parsers don't create toxicity, toxic people will always find a way to be toxic (as is VERY evidenced by this community). There's no reason to be afraid of a troubleshooting tool because some people might use it as a way to be obnoxious, just like there's no reason to remove the inspect function for the same reason.

You don't fix toxicity by handing them more tools. The fact that people even debate this boggles my mind when we have more than enough examples of how it'll be misused. The gray area approach is the best compromise.

[Thi]

If you can play your job decent enough to not be a burden the you should have nothing to fear about "toxic parsers". Most parsers are quite happy to see average numbers when they get duty finder or pugs.

Basically don't be a waste of a team slot in content with dps checks and you have nothing to fear from parsing.

[Zachia]

Please exemplify? I've seen far more toxicity over throughput in this game than across 13 years of WoW, in GW2, in NWN, B&S, etc., all games with performance metrics.

At best, the toxicity in XIV simply sometimes gets hidden by parties just disbanding when they get someone clearly underperforming/underprepared, rather than daring to offer advice on anything even tangentially to do with throughput for fear of being called out for parsing -- essentially wasting 7 extra people's time in requeuing, of all things, instead of even helping someone out. As someone who likes helping out in learning parties, etc., that state of things really sucks.


Heck, the last time I've had someone pulling well under their own weight in M+ (over in WoW), we stayed for a couple extra keys on our alts, postponing play on our mains, until he'd gotten a feel for how to manage throughput as melee even when the tank needs to kite (due to the Necrotic Affix). He didn't have a parser downloaded at the moment and just asked us to post numbers, for boss and overall, after each checkpoint, so we did, and gave class-specific pointers where we could while between fights (and on any wipes) and between runs.

Being informed =/= Being toxic. There's no part of being an ass, even, that's facilitated or encouraged by having a better grasp of the situation.

Back in Mists of Pandaria: Siege of Orgrimmar LFR Wing 1: First boss the water elemental. As a Ret paladin (yes i know lol ret in pve) my numbers just weren't great compared to the range dps of the group or pure dps classes. Someone pointed it out and laughed and how pathetic I was for being near the bottom (ouch). While others were saying "He rolled ret of course he sucks" or something amongst those lines. Or in many LFR cases where people would wipe they would just start kicking the bottom ten dps people on recount or what ever add-on they used. Using low dps as the reason why wipes happened instead of people actually doing mechanics. WoW's pug system with addons like raider io or recount is just toxic. The worst I experienced in FF14? When people could not legit get leviathan or Ramuh fight mechanics down after 7 or more wipes before voting to disband the group. I couldn't blame them, people were getting tired and the people failing the mechanics just weren't listening so I couldn't see it going any other way. I'm glad you have had positive experiences however but it doesn't mean that it applies to everyone else.

Edit: Oh and some Alliance raids through the roulette system getting the clouds of darkness raid. People are vicious in that raid.

[VelKallor]

Or in many LFR cases where people would wipe they would just start kicking the bottom ten dps people on recount or what ever add-on they used.

Oh God...this.

THIS is exactly what happened once..."kick all the low dps"

Ten seconds later..............we had no healers.

To this day, I still cant help laughing my head off.

[Kirundo]

I didn't say parsers create toxicity.
I said it adds more stuff for dicks to be dicks about.
but if that's what you think we were arguing about. *shrug*
I'm out.

And I say that introducing new features always "give dicks more stuff to be dicks about."
It should not stop us from having cars only because someone can drive that car through a crowd.

[Thi]

Back in Mists of Pandaria: Siege of Orgrimmar LFR Wing 1: First boss the water elemental. As a Ret paladin (yes i know lol ret in pve) my numbers just weren't great compared to the range dps of the group or pure dps classes. Someone pointed it out and laughed and how pathetic I was for being near the bottom (ouch). While others were saying "He rolled ret of course he sucks" or something amongst those lines. Or in many LFR cases where people would wipe they would just start kicking the bottom ten dps people on recount or what ever add-on they used. Using low dps as the reason why wipes happened instead of people actually doing mechanics. WoW's pug system with addons like raider io or recount is just toxic. The worst I experienced in FF14? When people could not legit get leviathan or Ramuh fight mechanics down after 7 or more wipes before voting to disband the group. I couldn't blame them, people were getting tired and the people failing the mechanics just weren't listening so I couldn't see it going any other way. I'm glad you have had positive experiences however but it doesn't mean that it applies to everyone else.

Edit: Oh and some Alliance raids through the roulette system getting the clouds of darkness raid. People are vicious in that raid.

The difference between FFXIV and WOW is there are no specs to "choose the wrong spec" and have an inherent disadvantage. If you are the bottom DPS out of the DPS classes by a significant margin, either you are dying to mechanics a lot or you are not playing with a proper rotation.

[Kolsykol]

No, damage meter won't solve any PF problems. It's a useful tool for measuring performance in high content. And as said before I do not agree that we will have "an influx of toxic behavior".

We already kinda have it in SSS, it's not exactly the most accurate thing but I think it's at least somewhat sufficient ( there is a website that allows you to calculate your DPS with SSS time completion too ).
Yoshi-P disagrees with you tho and I do think it can be seen in WoW.
Granted just because something happened in WoW doesn't make it some universal law that it will always happen but I do think it would and people who do high end content are likely going to seek it out anyways.
And SSS is ofc not in actual content, but it at least allows you to sorta confirm that you know your rotation at least in a vacuum.
And I don't think that a DPS meter will help outside of that, if you died or you dunno that you can hit bosses at max melee and just afk while the mechanic resolves then you're gonna know your DPS is suffering regardless.

[Hoodcat]

and you want to give more people an excuse to be toxic?

Not really an excuse, toxic is toxic, toxic people are going to find ways to be toxic. FF14 main way to be toxic tbh is baiting people, its rather lol. Professional victims =p

Keeping people ignorant of their performance to the point when they try to do something challenging that they get their ass handed to them so hard it immediately drives them away from it

Holding knowledge from them, keeping them ignorant on how they are doing is not doing them any favors. I just did a p2 normal on duty roulette, i did 9k sustained, the next highest dps was a gunblade at 3500 and a white mage at 3200. you think those 3 other dps had any idea how hard they were getting carried?

You guys keep makeing up extremes on stuff thats already happening. No one cares about carrying people so hard you are dragging em by the hair on normal or dungeons. You get to fights with enrage timers, and you need to do lets say 46k overall dps. But the group at its peak can only do 42k or 38k, you wana find that problem b4 you waist 6 hours of your life on something that wasnt doable.

again, all these negatives are already in the game. toxic people are gana be toxic. If you legalize something they will just find something else.

[Kirundo]

Back in Mists of Pandaria: Siege of Orgrimmar LFR Wing 1: First boss the water elemental. As a Ret paladin (yes i know lol ret in pve) my numbers just weren't great compared to the range dps of the group or pure dps classes. Someone pointed it out and laughed and how pathetic I was for being near the bottom (ouch). While others were saying "He rolled ret of course he sucks" or something amongst those lines. Or in many LFR cases where people would wipe they would just start kicking the bottom ten dps people on recount or what ever add-on they used. Using low dps as the reason why wipes happened instead of people actually doing mechanics. WoW's pug system with addons like raider io or recount is just toxic. The worst I experienced in FF14? When people could not legit get leviathan or Ramuh fight mechanics down after 7 or more wipes before voting to disband the group. I couldn't blame them, people were getting tired and the people failing the mechanics just weren't listening so I couldn't see it going any other way. I'm glad you have had positive experiences however but it doesn't mean that it applies to everyone else.

Edit: Oh and some Alliance raids through the roulette system getting the clouds of darkness raid. People are vicious in that raid.

And at least you knew that your DPS was a problem. Right now in FF you will just get a disband after a disband never knowing what the issue is. If you prefer this, that is your right, but I'd argue that it's same toxicity

[Tlachtga]

"FFXIV has the best community in gaming, everyone is so nice here!"

"wahhhhh no you can't add parsers, people will be toxic and this game will turn into WoW!"

so which is it?

i've always thought Yoshida's stance was wack on this one. Man designs fights with a dps requirement, but then doesn't let you see your dps. its like driving on a road with a 40km/h limit without your speedometer. it is possible? sure. but why wouldn't you want accurate measurement?

He's got a penchant for hiding stuff though i guess. Like all the substats. I have 2203 Critical Hit....which means what exactly? literally just a number. same with the other substats. why aren't these accurate percentages? to keep up the illusion of choice? to make Tenacity seem worth it?

I do love how the ToS always ceases to exist in people's hypotheticals. "ppl would demand your dps, even if it was private!" well....just report them? its against the rules now under harassment and the parsers aren't even allowed lol.

here's a lifehack: you don't have to join that PF. you can make your own PF. not only would you be able to avoid your silly hypothetical situation, you could remove any joining people who asks about numbers too. wild.

and lastly, if you've played whatever game for however many years, and everywhere you went you had people abusing you over your performance....maybe some self-reflection is in order? there's one constant there.