They Should Add An Official Damage Meter With One Condition

[Zachia]

To those wanting dps meters and more things that will tell you who to kick or abuse in your party to make yourselves feel better. There is the perfect community that does that, where you can feel entitled to make others feel less than dirt for wasting your time for not being the most optimal dps in game. "If you want Recount, World of Warcraft Mythic Plus is there waiting for you."

[Kirundo]

To those wanting dps meters and more things that will tell you who to kick or abuse in your party to make yourselves feel better. There is the perfect community that does that, where you can feel entitled to make others feel less than dirt for wasting your time for not being the most optimal dps in game. "If you want Recount, World of Warcraft Mythic Plus is there waiting for you."

That's the definition of a strawman argument

[Zachia]

Lets be real honest with ourselves here. If people didn't abuse dps meter add-ons in other MMORPG's and weren't extremely rude, disrespectful, or outright harassing than Yoshi-P and his team would never have a legit reason to not have them in game. But because people do abuse it just like anything else in the world, and some people can't control themselves, everyone is "punished" to prevent it from happening again.

[Shurrikhan]

If people didn't abuse dps meter add-ons in other MMORPG's

Please exemplify? I've seen far more toxicity over throughput in this game than across 13 years of WoW, in GW2, in NWN, B&S, etc., all games with performance metrics.

At best, the toxicity in XIV simply sometimes gets hidden by parties just disbanding when they get someone clearly underperforming/underprepared, rather than daring to offer advice on anything even tangentially to do with throughput for fear of being called out for parsing -- essentially wasting 7 extra people's time in requeuing, of all things, instead of even helping someone out. As someone who likes helping out in learning parties, etc., that state of things really sucks.


Heck, the last time I've had someone pulling well under their own weight in M+ (over in WoW), we stayed for a couple extra keys on our alts, postponing play on our mains, until he'd gotten a feel for how to manage throughput as melee even when the tank needs to kite (due to the Necrotic Affix). He didn't have a parser downloaded at the moment and just asked us to post numbers, for boss and overall, after each checkpoint, so we did, and gave class-specific pointers where we could while between fights (and on any wipes) and between runs.

Being informed =/= Being toxic. There's no part of being an ass, even, that's facilitated or encouraged by having a better grasp of the situation.

[hagare]

Yes, and they will be regardless of features put into the game.

This is relevant only if parsers would cause people to be dicks when they otherwise wouldn't, or that blinding people to their performance would somehow stop them from questioning others' performance when shit hits the fan (e.g., a DPS check is failed). Yet there is no evidence to suggest either is the case.

(In reality, it merely tends to shift the question merely from "What can we do to improve it" (locked behind these layers of blindfolds first from no sanctioned data and second from even eyeballed knowledge being threatenable with reports) to, first, what can be improved. It simply adds a prior, and arguably far more humiliating, step to the original one, or replaces solutions with disbandment.)

(Can't get called out for having potentially parsed if your solution to the problem is just to replace everyone and roll the dice again, after all. At least it's not "discriminatory" or likely to be reportable if you waste 8 players' time instead of helping the one in need. Modern grey-area solutions for modern blindfolded-under-threat-of-ban problems.)

And giving them parsers is giving them more things to be dicks about.
Let's not weaponize dicks even more yeah.

[Kirundo]

And giving them parsers is giving them more things to be dicks about.
Let's not weaponize dicks even more yeah.

You can argue against literally every feature in the game with this logic
Let's remove iLvL, ability to lock PF groups based on completion, ability to check someones gear and melds because it "weaponizes dicks"!

[hagare]

You can argue against literally every feature in the game with this logic
Let's remove iLvL, ability to lock PF groups based on completion, ability to check someones gear and melds because it "weaponizes dicks"!

so your proposal is, let's add more to it.
Sigh....... this is a good guy with a gun argument all over again

PS: another good argument against, just read the whole thread you made.

[Zachia]

Please exemplify? I've seen far more toxicity over throughput in this game than across 13 years of WoW, in GW2, in NWN, B&S, etc., all games with performance metrics.

At best, the toxicity in XIV simply sometimes gets hidden by parties just disbanding when they get someone clearly underperforming/underprepared, rather than daring to offer advice on anything even tangentially to do with throughput for fear of being called out for parsing -- essentially wasting 7 extra people's time in requeuing, of all things, instead of even helping someone out. As someone who likes helping out in learning parties, etc., that state of things really sucks.


Heck, the last time I've had someone pulling well under their own weight in M+ (over in WoW), we stayed for a couple extra keys on our alts, postponing play on our mains, until he'd gotten a feel for how to manage throughput as melee even when the tank needs to kite (due to the Necrotic Affix). He didn't have a parser downloaded at the moment and just asked us to post numbers, for boss and overall, after each checkpoint, so we did, and gave class-specific pointers where we could while between fights (and on any wipes) and between runs.

Being informed =/= Being toxic. There's no part of being an ass, even, that's facilitated or encouraged by having a better grasp of the situation.

Back in Mists of Pandaria: Siege of Orgrimmar LFR Wing 1: First boss the water elemental. As a Ret paladin (yes i know lol ret in pve) my numbers just weren't great compared to the range dps of the group or pure dps classes. Someone pointed it out and laughed and how pathetic I was for being near the bottom (ouch). While others were saying "He rolled ret of course he sucks" or something amongst those lines. Or in many LFR cases where people would wipe they would just start kicking the bottom ten dps people on recount or what ever add-on they used. Using low dps as the reason why wipes happened instead of people actually doing mechanics. WoW's pug system with addons like raider io or recount is just toxic. The worst I experienced in FF14? When people could not legit get leviathan or Ramuh fight mechanics down after 7 or more wipes before voting to disband the group. I couldn't blame them, people were getting tired and the people failing the mechanics just weren't listening so I couldn't see it going any other way. I'm glad you have had positive experiences however but it doesn't mean that it applies to everyone else.

Edit: Oh and some Alliance raids through the roulette system getting the clouds of darkness raid. People are vicious in that raid.

[Thi]

Back in Mists of Pandaria: Siege of Orgrimmar LFR Wing 1: First boss the water elemental. As a Ret paladin (yes i know lol ret in pve) my numbers just weren't great compared to the range dps of the group or pure dps classes. Someone pointed it out and laughed and how pathetic I was for being near the bottom (ouch). While others were saying "He rolled ret of course he sucks" or something amongst those lines. Or in many LFR cases where people would wipe they would just start kicking the bottom ten dps people on recount or what ever add-on they used. Using low dps as the reason why wipes happened instead of people actually doing mechanics. WoW's pug system with addons like raider io or recount is just toxic. The worst I experienced in FF14? When people could not legit get leviathan or Ramuh fight mechanics down after 7 or more wipes before voting to disband the group. I couldn't blame them, people were getting tired and the people failing the mechanics just weren't listening so I couldn't see it going any other way. I'm glad you have had positive experiences however but it doesn't mean that it applies to everyone else.

Edit: Oh and some Alliance raids through the roulette system getting the clouds of darkness raid. People are vicious in that raid.

The difference between FFXIV and WOW is there are no specs to "choose the wrong spec" and have an inherent disadvantage. If you are the bottom DPS out of the DPS classes by a significant margin, either you are dying to mechanics a lot or you are not playing with a proper rotation.