Incoming Frontline pvp adjustment - What changes do you think necessary?

[Momo_Kozuki]

Just like the recent letter on pvp adjustment said, the developer team is too focused on the shiny new Crystal Conflicts, a small-scale 5v5 arena, that Frontline, a 24v24v24 suffers from imbalance between classes.


Biggest problems that I observe during my playtime:


-Summoner's Limit Break: the biggest problem. Assuming both team is equal in skill, it is pretty much all about who focus-fire their legions of Bahamut first to kill a lot of another team's members to rack up Battle High, resulting even stronger Bahamuts next wave. No one use summon Phoenix, btw. In addition, both enemies and allies' summon have the same colors, so it is kinda hard to know which one is safe to approach post-drop.



-White Mage's Limit Break: help stun enemies' summoners so that your summoners can do the Bahamut drop. Two or more focus-fire WHM is pretty hurt and can finish off/let other people finish off dying enemies who are still be stunned.



-Scholar's DoT: scholar can rack up Battle High with their wide-spread DoT. It is rare to see a group of scholars compared to WHM and SUM, but when they do form a group, they climb Battle High fast, resulting very devastating on enemies side with their un-cure-able mass DoT.



-Paladin's Limit Break: call it smart play or imbalance depend on your mood, but PLD's LB is very strong in Oovo capture as you only need to capture the flag once. Basically, PLD cast LB and use Cover on a flag-capturer will make both immune to damage, and that capturer immune to all interruption. The duration lasts long enough for the flag to be captured, making it is possible to capture a flag that is already surrounded by enemies with only two people.



Altogether, you tend to see a frontline with a lot of WHM, SUM, and a few other classes. It boils down to whoever use their LB better and sweep in to deal with a half-killed force.



I think most of those above problem can be fixed by:


-Making all LBs only affect 5 target at max, or the damage on surrounding target has less potency

-Same with Scholar's DoT.

-Color-code summons similar to Sage's LB barrier drop. Need more red Bahamut/blue phoenix

-Also make Phoenix more useful in flag defense. Regen and reduce damage for nearby allies, for example. I have an interesting idea: upon Phoenix drop, it heals and make nearby allies immune to damage/status effect for 2-3s (which will put a debuff that make you not able receive the immune buff for 10s to prevent spamming), which can help to cover retreat/bolster defense against focus-fire if use strategically.

-Not sure if PLD's capture-the-flag strategy it should be kept or should go away. If go away, perhaps PLD's LB should has less charge time instead. Or add a mobile Passage of Arms so that he can bolster defense for people standing behind him.



Do you have any other suggestions?

[Deveryn]

The biggest problem is actually none of these, but the general apathy and ignorance that tends to exist. People don't know / care about how to actually play through the modes and strategize properly. They're there for the XP.

I've been in groups with a handful of these so-called OP classes and we still lose.

I regularly play scholar and there are times I can get some good battle high going as people just don't seem to have their heal button handy, but I'll also have a target on my back from all the fear mongering

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

The biggest problem is actually none of these, but the general apathy and ignorance that tends to exist. People don't know / care about how to actually play through the modes and strategize properly. They're there for the XP.

To be frank, I think this is more of a blame toward the dev for creating a content & then trying to appease the folks who do not enjoy said contents by luring them with carrot on the stick. It attracts all sort of individuals, including the ones with improper mindset to brace the contents.

[Deveryn]

To be frank, I think this is more of a blame toward the dev for creating a content & then trying to appease the folks who do not enjoy said contents by luring them with carrot on the stick. It attracts all sort of individuals, including the ones with improper mindset to brace the contents.

The devs definitely aren't without blame, but as with the rest of the game, some effort should be made to actually learn things. It's way more fun that way.

[AnotherPerson]

None of those are a big issue. The big deciding factor for winning is group coordination. You'll lose more if your team is less coordinated and the opponent's team is more coordinated. That's normal, and the definition of skill difference (which can be translated directly from Ranked Crystalline Conflict matches).

Frontlines is basically the bigger version of CC that heavily emphasizes group coordination. However, it's also flexible because every player is not at the same level of skill that it creates a chaotic environment when players can't coordinate as well as the opposing team when they start doing their own thing. This allows certain jobs to excel as they have a stronger influence on small skirmishes (Ninja, MNK, SCH, SAM, DRG, RDM). I've been in very coordinated groups after queueing in solo - with a ton of different jobs on my alliance without repeat. From MCH, ninja, BRD, WHM, AST, SCH, SMN, WAR, GNB, SAM, DNC, RDM, etc. And the opposing teams had been running 5+ SMNs /SCHs with bahamut, but we still won. The difference? Group coordination. We beat them in tactics and objectives.

Some jobs have it easier in Frontlines but that's because they have different degrees of "group-coordination" focus. For jobs like DNC and Bard which require your team to take advantage of their buffs, if your team is running away after you use your Limit Break, then no amount of help will let you win the game. This pretty much applies to group call-outs for taking objectives as well. Group coordination skills require a group effort to take advantage of, and their impact can be much greater than other skills - provided that the team is using them at the right moments.

No matter what kind of Bahamuts they have, if you play around their weaknesses instead of letting them capitalize on their strengths, they can't become a huge threat. If you force the two opposing alliances to fight each other as your alliance take the objectives before cleaning them up in the aftermath of their clash, they won't get a lot of Battle High and become a threat.

There are many ways to win Frontlines because everyone's skill level is varied, but the number of players is high. Plus, you're fighting against real players rather than bots, so there's no "one strategy fits all" solution and requires a lot of adaptability on the fly.

The only time a "one strategy fits all" solution would work is because players don't think outside of charging head on to it - AKA turning your brain off and hoping for the best. Sure, it works well because people play casually in Frontlines, but that's no excuse to saying players who are trying harder by coordinating better should be punished as a result because you can still get a similar result as long as people coordinated with their teammates. If anything, that just means you want Ranked Frontlines.

Having AoE reduced to 5 targets is not a good solution. Not only can you not choose which of the 5 enemies you want to target in the tightly spaced AoE when players are grouped together, there's no guarantee your synchronized attacks (which is the purpose of group coordination) even work well because they can all hit the wrong targets. This just means if you want to play better, you start excluding jobs that cannot target who you want to kill - Aka jobs that have a stronger focus towards single target enemies. That directly defeats the purpose of having all jobs being viable imo.

Especially for SCH, whose burst damage isn't anywhere near lethal alone. Is there any point of playing SCH at that point? You can't guarantee the DoT you spread will hit the target who you intended to defeat, nor do you have CC to apply pressure to the enemy. Now, your attack also has a chance to hit the wrong target in a tightly grouped up space because of AoE limitations. Even if your attack hits the intended targets, there's no guarantee your allies would be able to attack the correct target either unless it's a single target skill. What's the point of even playing a SCH at that point when half your toolkit doesn't work as intended?

[technole]

Frontline normally comes down to the amount of high vs low skilled players on the team. We all seen 'muh XP' sandbaggers, pieces of meat that don't press enough buttons, and the weirdo solo chasers that never compile any battle high in their lifetimes. If you're offended by this remark, it's probably a skill issue.

[Burmecia]

-Color-code summons similar to Sage's LB barrier drop. Need more red Bahamut/blue phoenix

I would love this. OP is full of other good ideas. Good post.

[gotaname1]

Frontline normally comes down to the amount of high vs low skilled players on the team. We all seen 'muh XP' sandbaggers, pieces of meat that don't press enough buttons, and the weirdo solo chasers that never compile any battle high in their lifetimes. If you're offended by this remark, it's probably a skill issue.

Soon, coming to a third party tool near you on pc.... xD

[Deveryn]

TBH, I blacked out when I saw the usual suspects being listed. I have to talk about SCH and how assigning maximum targets is a bad idea.

Its strength lies in people grouping together on either side, whether you buff your team or try to damage others. I use Biolysis very sparingly and very strategically. Its max potency takes time to achieve and that's why it's as strong as it is. Any strike has to be precise and comes with the risk of being stopped in my tracks and quickly dealt with.

If you're having trouble with the DoT, then you need to look at that Recuperate skill and how accessible it is. I get most of my kills and assists when folks are distracted

The skill doesn't need to be limited in targets, folks need to get more situationally aware.

Getting back to team friendly tactics, folks need to learn to stand by their scholar (and healers in general).

[Genz]

Revert pvp to pre-6.1, because it was more balanced and didn't need these kind of rubberband to work. (and had room for new fun skills like the Drg LB)