Ninja changes

[aloneatsea]

but while reading this Thread makes me realize.. Suiton is kinda like Kaiten, a core mechanic.

Suiton is one of if not the defining mechanics of Ninja. An entire mudra (of which there can only be a maximum of seven) devoted to a single ability. Admittedly, it was two abilities in the past, but they shared a cooldown, and Sneak Attack was likely removed because Trick Attack was superior in pretty much every way. There just wasn't a use case for it.

I'd honestly rather Mug just go back to its roots. Have it steal an "item" (the ability --not an actually an item, as to still be queueable-- then being hotswapped onto Mug's hotbar slot), perhaps updated or varied for flavor with expansions, of one of some 3 to 5 types, with consistent color schemes for their effects (green for a heal --usable also on others, blue for a self-shield/mitigation, yellow for resource generation, red for a bit of bonus damage, orange for a snare, etc.).

Reduce Mug's cooldown to 40 seconds, two charges. No inherent Ninki gain. In turn, just have each Ninjutsu generate 10 Ninki. That'd be plenty to get Bunshin rolling quickly between Suiton, Kassatsu, and TCJ.

I kinda like the idea you've got here, honestly. Ninja's rotation is incredibly static as it is, so adding something vaguely akin to a proc would do a lot to make things just a fraction more interesting. RNG is a bit of a cursed term, but I personally really enjoy the 'proc' classes Dancer and Red Mage, so I think this would be a flavourful, if minimal impactful ability. The main problem I can see with it is that if it stocks an ability, you're locked out of using the other charge until you consume that item. Additionally, you might not want to use that self-heal or mitigation right then and there, but you'll overcap on charges if you don't. Still, I really like the concept. I think it's a much better of the Mug's presence than what we currently have.


I do disagree with the lack of Ninki gain, though -- you've obviously though out your changes fairly well, as you'll double-weave Trick and Bunshin in your opener (assuming Huton's Ninki gain isn't killed when you Hide), and still maintain most of the potency gain. This does have a flow-on effect of every Bunshin only being available within Trick as opposed to just before it, which means if you're plugging the standard Hyosho + 2 Raiton + 2 Raiju into your odd windows, you're missing out on a Bunshin-boosted basic GCD if you're trying to minimise DwaD drift. I guess you could just accept that DwaD will drift and lead into your Trick window with Hyosho, but it's not ideal. The other issue I see with it is that this is going to lead to way more Ninki generation over time than Mug ever provided. Three mudras a minute = 30 Ninki a minute = 60 Ninki every two minutes. 20 Ninki might not sound like much, but it's there, and worth roughly 140 potency. That, and it feels like we're overloading Mudras by making them responsible for having their own effects as well as being a part of your Ninki generation management. On one hand, it's a nice solution if you're really dead-set against there being a Ninki gainer in Ninja's kit, but the complexity it will introduce doesn't sound particularly fun to me. One of the nice parts of mudras in my opinion is that they don't give you gauge. By giving them Ninki gen, literally every GCD ability in the Ninja's kit will increase your gauge. This means if you ever end up in the ideal situation of entering Trick with 100 gauge, you're forced to double-weave Trick -> Bhava, because anything else you press will overcap you on gauge. If Trick comes off cooldown later in your weave window, you have to clip or use Bhava earlier.

I dunno, my complaints might seem kinda...small? Edge-casey? But I do think that mudras not being tied to gauge generation is a good thing. I'm trying to imagine it in my brain and it just feels wrong, for reasons I can't exactly articulate as succinctly as I'd like to.

To me, the most obvious solution is to just... put the Ninki gen on a different button. Preferably its own button. The charges on that would be great too, adding some flexibility on when you want it.

40s Mug CD sounds bad, since it wouldn't line up with anything^^;
now it lines up with Ten Chi Jin ^^ and theoreticly with Trick Attack, Dream and Kassatsu, which I certainly like.

A 40s cooldown means that two charges have an effective 80s cooldown, and three charges have an effective 120s cooldown. Suddenly it lines up, yeah? Most likely, you'd save two Mugs for just before your two-minute windows, and one Mug for just before your one-minute window. 40s cooldowns are no problem -- the point of the charges is that you don't have to use them on cooldown, but they allow you to if you want, and make your rotation infinitely more flexible.

[Shurrikhan]

I do disagree with the lack of Ninki gain, though -- you've obviously though out your changes fairly well, as you'll double-weave Trick and Bunshin in your opener (assuming Huton's Ninki gain isn't killed when you Hide), and still maintain most of the potency gain.

Ninki gain would be far higher with what I suggested earlier, spitball though it be. At present, we do 11 Ninjutsu per 2 minutes (6 naturals, 2 Kassatsu, 3 TCJ), which would be an increase of 60 Ninki per 2 minutes relative to the Ninki gain on Mug.

You could, however, level that increase out just by having that instead (10 Ninki per Ninjutsu instead of 5 more per AE/AC) be the effect of Shukiko III, as we tend to about 9.8 casts of AE or AC per minute, thus generating ~100 Ninki per two minutes from the current trait. At that point, you'd have roughly the same effect over time, just more burstily as to better suit getting Bunshin out fast an early.

It's impossible to "kill" Ninki gain, from using Hide after Huton or otherwise, but I imagine you'd make it so that Ninjutsu only generates Ninki while in combat.

And at that point, voila, we can actually have Mug be a thematic skill instead of just bloat action we take as necessary only because of our more recent obsession with having access to any and every ability within 4 GCDs of starting combat (despite Mug originally affording only half a Bunshin cast).

[aloneatsea]

Ninki gain would be far higher with what I suggested earlier, spitball though it be. At present, we do 11 Ninjutsu per 2 minutes (6 naturals, 2 Kassatsu, 3 TCJ), which would be an increase of 60 Ninki per 2 minutes relative to the Ninki gain on Mug.

Good point! I'd forgotten to take into account our other Ninjutsu casts outside of our standard 3-per-minute charges.

It's impossible to "kill" Ninki gain, from using Hide after Huton or otherwise, but I imagine you'd make it so that Ninjutsu only generates Ninki while in combat.

Oh, by this I was meaning they'd pull a Doton and just reset your gauge upon using Hide. I'd hope they wouldn't do it, but god knows with these devs.

To clarify, are you suggesting we remove Ninki generation from our base GCDs, and put it all on mudras? That's quite different from how I interpreted your original statement, and I'd feel a lot different about that.

[Shurrikhan]

To clarify, are you suggesting we remove Ninki generation from our base GCDs, and put it all on mudras? That's quite different from how I interpreted your original statement, and I'd feel a lot different about that.

I'm suggesting that instead of increasing AE/AC Ninki gen from 10 to 15 with Endwalker's Shukiko III trait, we put 10 on each Ninjutsu used in combat (not each mudra). The result would be near identical, just more aligned with burst.

[aloneatsea]

I'm suggesting that instead of increasing AE/AC Ninki gen from 10 to 15 with Endwalker's Shukiko III trait, we put 10 on each Ninjutsu used in combat (not each mudra). The result would be near identical, just more aligned with burst.

Mm, yeah, I still don't like this idea. Having gauge generation on every single one of your abilities doesn't sound even remotely fun to manage. You get more Ninki overall, which doesn't really solve anything, given we already generate tons of it, and your burst windows become that much more tight without increasing the complexity of your rotation outside of Trick windows.


I just don't understand why you're so opposed to having a very basic gauge gainer on a long-ish cooldown. It doesn't even need to be something you can use in combat. Maybe you can only use it outside of combat (or it has a long cast that's only instant outside of combat, like Reaper's Soulsow), so it's main use is to kick off Bunshin, or be used to gain gauge during downtime.

[Shurrikhan]

Again... no, it would not give Ninki on "every single one of your abilities". I specified ONE, not all. Not every NIN ability is Ninjutsu; that name describes ONE ability. The Ninki generated per two minutes, meanwhile, would be nearly identical between getting 10 Ninki per Ninjutsu (110 per minute) and an extra 5 per AE/AC (~102 per 2 minutes).

I'm not "so opposed" to having a skill that only generates resource; I simply dislike skills being thematic in name alone.

If Perfect Balance (Blitz being separate), for instance, merely gave full Chakra, would that feel satisfying? It'd still be worth hefty potency, but would it have anything to do with balance? Would it offer any new gameplay loops? That's what a Mug that merely gives Ninki and a dab if direct potency feels like to me. Nothing about it fits its name. Nothing about it shouts Rogue. And if all that were irrelevant, why wouldn't it be given as a NIN skill, named, in Japanese for every localization, after some swift unarmed strike technique?

[aloneatsea]

Again... no, it would not give Ninki on "every single one of your abilities". I specified ONE, not all. Not every NIN ability is Ninjutsu; that name describes ONE ability. The Ninki generated per two minutes, meanwhile, would be nearly identical between getting 10 Ninki per Ninjutsu (110 per minute) and an extra 5 per AE/AC (~102 per 2 minutes).

My apologies, I should have been more clear - I was referring to abilities on the GCD, which with your suggested changes, would all grant Ninki.

I'm not "so opposed" to having a skill that only generates resource; I simply dislike skills being thematic in name alone.

If Perfect Balance (Blitz being separate), for instance, merely gave full Chakra, would that feel satisfying? It'd still be worth hefty potency, but would it have anything to do with balance? Would it offer any new gameplay loops? That's what a Mug that merely gives Ninki and a dab if direct potency feels like to me. Nothing about it fits its name. Nothing about it shouts Rogue. And if all that were irrelevant, why wouldn't it be given as a NIN skill, named, in Japanese for every localization, after some swift unarmed strike technique?

Which is why I said your Mug changes were a great idea, and suggested moving the Ninki gain onto another button.