Ninja changes

[AlnoAshen]

I am writing this post to get my opinion out there to the devs.I love your game thank you for all the amazing work.During 6.0 we asked them to make the raijus so that the proc wont be broken by weaponskills,they listened to us and responded bu giving us a much better change.They made it so that one of the raiju was no longer a gapcloser which is a much better implementation than what we were asking.So,I trust they devs.

I know 6.1 changes were implemented for balancing ninja in DSR ultimate.But, Despite understanding the reason I still believ 6.05 ninja was the best ninja ever.

The ninki management was better,the fact that you could put mug inside your 2 mins buffs window instead of right before it made the job feel more bursty,and there was higher element of skill expression and the skill ceiling was a bit higher too.Now all of that is gone because of the changes

Moreover,the job just felt more cohesive,since everything revolved around one cooldown,Not to mention the impact you hand on your party and how they used their 1 min burst.

In conslusion, I implore the devs to reconsider this change,eventhough I understand they had valid reasons to implement it in the first place.

Thank you.

[aloneatsea]

Huge agree. If Trick is proving to be too strong in one particular fight, nerf Ninja's personal damage a little bit -- don't nuke it's party utility. Trick is such an important ability, both for cohersion of how Ninjas play and what it brings to the table. I'd actually be really happy if Hyosho Ranryu was a bit weaker, because it could open up the opportunity to use Goka Mekkyaku on two targets. Currently, we only do our single-target rotation on two targets, which is really boring. Taking some potency off of Raijus as well means it might become worthwhile again to use Doton in two-target content. You almost never get to use your AOE abilities in difficult content, because we never have three-target+ fights outside of dungeons ):.

Yoshi-P said in a pre-6.0 interview that making all cooldowns two-minutes would be boring. Somehow, we're moving into that world anyway, and guess what? It's boring...


I implore the devs to reconsider these changes, and revert Ninja. Nerf it, by all means! 6.08 Ninja was already absurdly strong; 6.1 Ninja is beyond broken. Even if we went back to 6.05 numbers, I think that'd be fine.

[butchersblock]

Huge agree. If Trick is proving to be too strong in one particular fight, nerf Ninja's personal damage a little bit -- don't nuke it's party utility. Trick is such an important ability, both for cohersion of how Ninjas play and what it brings to the table. I'd actually be really happy if Hyosho Ranryu was a bit weaker, because it could open up the opportunity to use Goka Mekkyaku on two targets. Currently, we only do our single-target rotation on two targets, which is really boring. Taking some potency off of Raijus as well means it might become worthwhile again to use Doton in two-target content. You almost never get to use your AOE abilities in difficult content, because we never have three-target+ fights outside of dungeons ):.

Yoshi-P said in a pre-6.0 interview that making all cooldowns two-minutes would be boring. Somehow, we're moving into that world anyway, and guess what? It's boring...


I implore the devs to reconsider these changes, and revert Ninja. Nerf it, by all means! 6.08 Ninja was already absurdly strong; 6.1 Ninja is beyond broken. Even if we went back to 6.05 numbers, I think that'd be fine.

I miss double target optimisation so much. Thank god there's still Ninja in TEA I guess, but it's nowhere near enough.

[aloneatsea]

I miss double target optimisation so much. Thank god there's still Ninja in TEA I guess, but it's nowhere near enough.

Even then, I think back in Shadowbringers you would Katon/Hellfrog a lot. Given that Doton is an effective 1120 potency on two targets, unless you're 100% sure you're only going to get 3 ticks of Doton off (Doton is greater potency at 4+ ticks/12s+), you're going to use Doton over Katon 100% of the time. Hellfrog's potency is a joke, too... 320 potency on two-target vs Bhava's 350. And, of course, you'd never use Goka. It just feels wrong...

[butchersblock]

Even then, I think back in Shadowbringers you would Katon/Hellfrog a lot. Given that Doton is an effective 1120 potency on two targets, unless you're 100% sure you're only going to get 3 ticks of Doton off (Doton is greater potency at 4+ ticks/12s+), you're going to use Doton over Katon 100% of the time. Hellfrog's potency is a joke, too... 320 potency on two-target vs Bhava's 350. And, of course, you'd never use Goka. It just feels wrong...

Yeah. Real damn shame about Goka especially, I really like its animation a lot more than Hyosho's

[aloneatsea]

Yeah. Real damn shame about Goka especially, I really like its animation a lot more than Hyosho's

I completely agree! Katon and Goka's animations are some of my favourite in the entire game; especially when playing as an Au Ra, it feels like you're a proper fire-breathing dragon.

I really do think that if we're not going to change the potencies on (some) AOE abilities to make them gains on two-target, we need to get 3+ target Savage+ level fights. I want to use my coolest abilities in hard fights ):

[butchersblock]

I completely agree! Katon and Goka's animations are some of my favourite in the entire game; especially when playing as an Au Ra, it feels like you're a proper fire-breathing dragon.

I really do think that if we're not going to change the potencies on (some) AOE abilities to make them gains on two-target, we need to get 3+ target Savage+ level fights. I want to use my coolest abilities in hard fights ):

I'd rather avoid too many add phases and triple targets as it frequently devolves into people doing very annoying things to pad their numbers, I'd rather have Ninja's single target CD's nerfed to make aoes a gain on double target. Double target is imo the sweetspot where you can optimise without it being devolved into very unhealthy playstyles that screw over your teammates.

[XRuecian]

I really want to enjoy ninja. I have tried again and again. But everytime i get annoyed with some of the design choices (or leftover clunkyness from old iterations). And i end up giving up on it again and again. It's not really the difficulty of the class that i dislike, it just feels like there is a lot of unnecessary bloat that i have to use in order to play the class at a decent level.
For example: Why does Dream Within a Dream even exist? Its just another one of those "Push every 60s inside your burst window" buttons with no real synergy or purpose. Its just leftover from when they wanted it to be a stealth based class.
Same goes for Suiton. They clearly originally designed the job around being a stealth based class; but TODAY it is not really a stealth class. You don't actually utilize stealth on a ninja at all except to refresh mudras between pulls. So WHY do they still have skills locked behind stealth requirements at all? They should have removed suiton and the stealth requirement on Trick Attack long ago. This just feels like unnecessary unfun stuff i have to do every 60s. This doesn't add fun complexity to the job, its just an annoyance you have to deal with in your rotation.

Also a little salty that we have to work to keep up Huton for a 15% speed increase while monks get a passive 20% increase. Feels to me like Ninja should be rewarded with 20% (since it requires effort) and monk should get the 15%, or at the very least both should get 20%.
Worst of all though, is putting in all that effort to properly learn a difficult job, probably the most difficult of all to get the rotation and opening down on a high level, only to be have 'mediocre' DPS output. While classes like Samurai get top DPS while pushing 123. Kinda feels unrewarding

[butchersblock]

I really want to enjoy ninja. I have tried again and again. But everytime i get annoyed with some of the design choices (or leftover clunkyness from old iterations). And i end up giving up on it again and again. It's not really the difficulty of the class that i dislike, it just feels like there is a lot of unnecessary bloat that i have to use in order to play the class at a decent level.
For example: Why does Dream Within a Dream even exist? Its just another one of those "Push every 60s inside your burst window" buttons with no real synergy or purpose. Its just leftover from when they wanted it to be a stealth based class.
Same goes for Suiton. They clearly originally designed the job around being a stealth based class; but TODAY it is not really a stealth class. You don't actually utilize stealth on a ninja at all except to refresh mudras between pulls. So WHY do they still have skills locked behind stealth requirements at all? They should have removed suiton and the stealth requirement on Trick Attack long ago. This just feels like unnecessary unfun stuff i have to do every 60s. This doesn't add fun complexity to the job, its just an annoyance you have to deal with in your rotation.

Also a little salty that we have to work to keep up Huton for a 15% speed increase while monks get a passive 20% increase. Feels to me like Ninja should be rewarded with 20% (since it requires effort) and monk should get the 15%, or at the very least both should get 20%.
Worst of all though, is putting in all that effort to properly learn a difficult job, probably the most difficult of all to get the rotation and opening down on a high level, only to be have 'mediocre' DPS output. While classes like Samurai get top DPS while pushing 123. Kinda feels unrewarding

there's no way this isn't low quality bait

[Shurrikhan]

For example: Why does Dream Within a Dream even exist? Its just another one of those "Push every 60s inside your burst window" buttons with no real synergy or purpose. Its just leftover from when they wanted it to be a stealth based class.

NIN has never been, nor has it ever pretended to be, a primarily stealth-based class. Ninja has instead been based primarily around Ninjutsu.

Same goes for Suiton. They clearly originally designed the job around being a stealth based class; but TODAY it is not really a stealth class. You don't actually utilize stealth on a ninja at all except to refresh mudras between pulls. So WHY do they still have skills locked behind stealth requirements at all?

They don't. A pillar of water is not Hide.

They should have removed suiton and the stealth requirement on Trick Attack long ago. This just feels like unnecessary unfun stuff i have to do every 60s. This doesn't add fun complexity to the job, its just an annoyance you have to deal with in your rotation.

Suiton remains a prior step to Trick Attack because most NINs find their core mechanic, Ninjutsu, fun --rather than "just an annoyance"-- and you'd otherwise have no 3-step mudras to interact with in ST (or even in AoE if those targets would die or move within 12 seconds).

Also a little salty that we have to work to keep up Huton for a 15% speed increase while monks get a passive 20% increase.

You hit 4 instead of 3 roughly every 4th combo. And that's hugely bankable, unlike the likes of Shifu.

Feels to me like Ninja should be rewarded with 20% (since it requires effort) and monk should get the 15%, or at the very least both should get 20%.

Pure bait likelihood rising. Or should we also steal other class's core mechanics and say we're more deserving because of a pre-popped Ninjutsu?

Worst of all though, is putting in all that effort to properly learn a difficult job, probably the most difficult of all to get the rotation and opening down on a high level, only to be have 'mediocre' DPS output. While classes like Samurai get top DPS while pushing 123. Kinda feels unrewarding.

You might just be bad at NIN. NIN currently has both the highest rDPS and the highest raw DPS parse in the game at time of writing (11.3k on P1S). Even without counting its party buffs, it can match SAM and BLM pound for pound. It's flagrantly overtuned.

____________________________

To be clear, there's a fair bit I'm not fond of in NIN's later iterations, to the point that I much prefer Heavensward's gameplay but with some added elements of later expansions (new TCJ, Ninki spenders, earlier Bunshin that we'd want to align Ninjutsu away from as not to waste duration, Meisui) and perhaps with Mutilate pruned (but Shadowfang still on a 2nd-step combo finisher). Today, there's some button bloat, mechanics that exist seemingly just to get you out of other, more core mechanics (and actually diminish opportunities for skillful play by forgoing the more core forms of said mechanic), too little rotational depth, too little to do in the lulls between bursts, etc. But, on the whole, 6.05 NIN was a really solid job (even if 5.0, if it were simply balanced and received the TCJ and Meisui changes alone, would have been the iteration closest to my tastes).