I would like to point out that 2 whm set up is more for splitting the hate than it is for keeping up with healing.
I would like to point out that 2 whm set up is more for splitting the hate than it is for keeping up with healing.
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Yea you won't see a pty without 2 WHM just because a PLD can buff itself while it loses Hate.
Support RDM Development: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/42776-How-Would-You-Design-Red-Mage%21[/center]
It's overlooked because off-healing as part of a tank's job is a very bad idea. Between sub-targetting sucking horribly on keyboard+mouse and lack of mouseover macros, you as the tank cannot afford the distraction of looking at health bars and tossing heals.
That second WHM should be non-negotiable. I just hope encounters can justify having more than one tank and more than one healer in a group as time goes by, otherwise there will be problems because of this attempt at distinction.A Warrior Set up defers to 2 WHMs and relies upon the Warrior to make up the damage differential.
A Paladin setup defers to a second hybrid or damage class rather than a second WHM.
Not to mention, the second setence has situational written all over it, which we don't need. PLD and WAR, as well as WHM and whatever other healer they put into the game, have to be interchangable. Otherwise we give way for preferred jobs and leaving people out in the cold.
* The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
* Design ideas:
Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)
I strongly disagree here. Off-healing not only takes a bit of the load off the WHM, but it's great for hate building as well. While not all fights allow you to do it properly, fights like Ifrit, where you have melee in proximity of your casting range, are easy to target with the Function keys, and Holy Succor will usually cure all they need while still giving you a decent push in enmity.
You view it as a cumbersome distraction, but I really don't feel it's like this at all. Sub-targeting isn't really an issue if you use function keys, and even if you don't, it isn't all that hard to tab through to your target depending on your positioning. Plus it isn't going to cost you much enmity at all, assuming you're curing someone who needs it where you would gain moderate enmity AND cure yourself for half that amount.
i'm with Alerith on this one, it's as easy to cure someone in a pinch as it is to cover someone. looking at other people's hp bars isn't too much of a burden
"Unbelievable wipes... indescribable failings. Whining, bitching, rage quitting - through an endless party find." - Doho, A Whole New Whorl
I view it as a distraction because you're supposed to focus on your own survival while tanking. It's a world of difference between being a DPS off-healing (which I've done as a Ret paladin in WoW and a melee RDM in FFXI) where you don't have to worry about what the boss might do in your face while you're tossing heals in between breaks of your damage rotation. It'd be another thing if it were like cures cast to recapture hate while a mob is trodding towards a party member (which I've also done in FFXI when tanking as a PLD), but off-healing as the tank's jobs is not going to be good news. All it does is create unnecessary stress on a job whose role is already stressful enough. It's like expecting a healer to also do close to top DPS.
* The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
* Design ideas:
Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)
I fail to see how it really adds stress. You, as the tank, shouldn't be relied on for cures, but it should be an augmenting force to your tanking skills and the survival of your party.
We know the movesets of just about everything we fight these days, and in all tanks should know their limits on taking damage. If I'm in critical health, I'm not going to be curing someone else because the next move Ifrit does could probably kill me. But if I'm sitting at high yellow or white HP, where there is no risk of any of his moves from his entire moveset killing me, then I'm free to throw out cures or buffs depending on the situation.
Honestly, it's literally no different from curing yourself, except for hitting a function key to target someone else. You wouldn't say being responsible for your own HP is too stressful, so how would adding one keystroke add so much stress that it would be undesirable for restoring an allies HP (in addition to your own, in addition to enmity)?
EDIT: You say that it's a distraction because you should be focusing on your own survival.
This is false. Tanking it about the survival of your entire group. It doesn't matter how well you stay alive on your own. If the rest of your team is dead for any given reason, then you've failed and you likely aren't going to finish the fight you're in.
I think the really problem with pld is the lack of damage. War do more damage but take more than PLD, PLD can keep alive itself for a bit more healing and helping to heal other melee jobs with his ability but a lot of events consist on try to deal a lot of dmg fast or you're dead.
On moogle you need to kill those faster as you can before 2h or you're dead, ok, BLM do a lot of more dmg than war but a bit of more damage helps.
Garuda, need to take it down to 50%-60% so she can do her 2h, also steel cyclone helps to kill plumes and garuda clone.
Then, speed runs, war can do more a lot of more damage so people will want it to clear AV and CC faster for speed run.
It seems that on the game to do it better you need to kill it faster and this is the problem now, pld lacks on damage, but isn't his problem, paladin should be a wall and with this a lack of attack power. Speed run and doing more damage so you can win pretty much obligatory should be removed for a more strategy and peaceful oriented game.
I did a quick solo test against multiple monsters all at once. This may not come to a surprise to most, but my conclusion was that Warrior simply out match Paladin when it comes to survivability when fighting multiple enemies.
Here is the details on PLD, while fighting multiple enemies my MP was quickly being dried up, and I ended up getting KO'd in the end with only taking out a few enemies. The good; I took less damage compared to Warrior. The bad; lack of MP even with Outmaneuver caused me to die.
On Warrior, with Rampage and Bloodbath I don't have to worry at all, and for extra security I have Second Wind. Basically I was constantly recovering HP with weapon skills, and with the occasional critical hits. The damage I sustained by enemies is almost comparable with Paladin.
So, not a big difference here. PLD is heavily depended on MP.
For me this just proves WAR is better against multiple enemies, and with more enemies the better my chances of a critical hit to recover my HP. I also provided a video, and before you laugh and nitpick at it I was lagging like hell while recording so I messed up a few actions.
If anyone gets a different result than mine please share.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N-SbBPj6Z0
Last edited by Andrien; 05-26-2012 at 03:37 AM.
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