All addons are not equal

[Ralphe2449]

An issue I am seeing is that people use the term addons to refer to literally anything which is an issue because:

There's harmless addons like ones that fix helmets for hrothgar

There's possibly toxic addons like dps meters that CAN lead to toxicity

And there's addons that should absolutely be tracked and banned like ones that show encounter mechanic timers and announcing of mechanics happening that not only trivialize the difficulty of said encounter, it makes people reliant on those which results in a terrible culture like in WoW.


The first 2 categories imo worked fine under the current ruleset, they are "not allowed" but if nobody knows it has happened, no harm was done. (Uploading logs into a public site though, often without even the consent of everyone is another thing and log sites should be tracked and uploaders banned)


The third category though is not only making a joke out of the encounter design efforts but they also hurt the game and the community by trying to turn it into WoW and should ACTIVELY be scanned during play and any player using them banned.

It feels like the wow migrants are trying to import the tryhard mentality of a billion addons and raid support tools because they cant clear without depending on addons telling them what to do, which is not only wrong but unhealthy for raid design and even WoW devs have admitted that it makes raid design problematic.

So please SE considering actively searching for such addons and banning them outright!

[Shougun]

The DBM (WoW addon that told you what the boss is or was going to do) is baked in the parse utility (though as far as I know you have to turn it on within the utility), so if SE decided to do what they said they wouldn't do and spy into people's PCs. Then I imagine the other powerful tool out there would get DBM (as complex fights makes such a tool likely highly desirable by some players), and so you'd also be detecting for the custom launcher lol. Not saying you can't do that but just that the tool(s) that can or do what you described would both need to be burnt in order for that third clause to happen.

DBM tool that is active has been around for a long while, and before it there was inbuilt scripts people could make for it that did functionally similar things if you cared enough (I'm wondering if it wont be such now, but before all of this was really easy to learn by looking at reddit just occasionally).

I'm really curious how much impact it would have, given that FFXIV seems to have a little bit more casual audience, and that casual audience is already the majority group in most games (even WoW with vaguely similar 1 - 10% like numbers, depending on what content you're looking at). Potentially if you went scorched earth you might see a direct participation impact to those harder contents.

Would be funny that to save the hard content you end up making it even less attractive which leads to the numbers showing it's even less player engaged leading to SE putting less importance on making them lol. (Conversely said the increase in player awareness and reduced stress and thus increased participation given DBM like tools is why SE has recently felt skill increases, so taking action against them might lead to them seeing the original if not worse numbers since the DBM like tool in FFXIV is fairly old though both tools have increased in attention a lot in recent time)

SE can do whatever they want but I'm still of the mind, from basically a decade ago on the forums, that you cant stop the addons- and if you force them to exist in the dark you're going to lack control over them. Making the game good enough that most addons are pointless is an interesting solution and I hope that is successful though, and even if it's not everyone is still a winner because the game offers more power. (I imagine such an attempt may decrease reliance on it at least).

Not even saying the tool may not be having a negative impact to the game like DBM as I do believe it increases awareness in a very effective way and as such SE might be thinking "wow our players are getting better, we need to up the ante"- but I feel given how SE approaches design the issue is not as pronounced as they have created a quality control technique in that they test the content themselves, and also ensure certain player skill levels can do certain content (like when Yoshida had to remove someone from the test team because they got too good lol), which helps dampen the damage such a tool could do. Since the team plays the game without tools (I hope at least lol), it allows them to ensure they're not asking more than is reasonable from a non-tool player.

From what I know, at least hearing about certain infamous bosses, in WoW they didn't always ensure they could complete the content because they assumed their players were better (and in essence did allow DBM to have a greater runaway effect, making it an essential tool unless you had exceptional memory and response time.. or doing easy content ).

[Ralphe2449]

I'm really curious how much impact it would have, given that FFXIV seems to have a little bit more casual audience, and that casual audience is already the majority group in most games (even WoW with vaguely similar 1 - 10% like numbers, depending on what content you're looking at).

I am not as curious because we have WoW as an example, even though like you said casuals are the majority even in games like WoW that mentality has taken hold since it spreads like a disease if it is tolerated even to lower level content. You would occasionally see topics about some elitist complaining about the performance of someone in heroic dungeons which are equivalent to MSQ dungeons in ff14 where you can literally do them with multiple people dead, a more adequate example would be people demanding meta for a +6 key while people are doing 20s during that time.
The mentality that comes with said addons is my main concern.

SE can do whatever they want but I'm still of the mind, from basically a decade ago on the forums, that you cant stop the addons- and if you force them to exist in the dark you're going to lack control over them.

You are correct, they will always exist, but I honestly dont mind them if they are used secretly by a tiny minority that has to actively hide from SE.

Right now SE might as well have given their approval when people watch streams with people using similar addons or even basic addons and never getting punished for it even though they are all against the ToS, the previous rule of "use it but be quiet about it" worked as long as we dont have streamers influencing thousands by using addons publicly like that and saying its cool. Because afaik only some JP streamer got banned, there's a ton of western streamers who used addons publicly and didnt get banned.

I do believe it increases awareness in a very effective way

I will utterly and completely disagree with that, people usually end up tunnel visioning and having the addon or raid leader wake them up to the mechanic because you often see if the raid lead forgets to mention something many people screw up because they depend on addon/raid lead to tell them "Yo, mechanic inbound". Which imo is completely wrong, a raid lead should be there for when there's uncertainty and people have to make a decision quick, not to literally baby sit you and tell you when mechanics happen, that should be personal responsibility.

Which is a terrible thing because there's many mechanics that require you to track add positioning or some type of visual element that changes over the duration of the encounter that might come from some random direction, so if you are to respond adequately you need to also pay attention to it and not just forget it until the last minute call else you might not have enough time or space to survive.

This SERIOUS lack of spacial awareness is something very common in WoW's high end content and that is because people never learned the mechanic through in game visual signs to begin with and instead depended on addons or raid leads.

And its not just "oh our players are getting better", mechanics become far easier when you have a timer or unique mechanic announcing sounds, it literally is easy mode with them which results in dev having to make it even harder to compensate for the use of such addons which leads to more complicated mechanics and further problems, hence why such addons shouldnt be tolerated publicly, let them exist only in the shadows unlike know where they are literally public. And that will also hurt streamers who cant clear without addon help xd

[Shougun]

I am not as curious because we have WoW as an example, even though like you said casuals are the majority even in games like WoW that mentality has taken hold since it spreads like a disease if it is tolerated even to lower level content. You would occasionally see topics about some elitist complaining about the performance of someone in heroic dungeons which are equivalent to MSQ dungeons in ff14 where you can literally do them with multiple people dead, a more adequate example would be people demanding meta for a +6 key while people are doing 20s during that time.
The mentality that comes with said addons is my main concern.

I don't want to suggest changes as big as DBM like tools cant effect the culture but given how SE designs content, as you point out- I feel, personally, that even if it was sanctioned allowed... it wouldn't be as substantial. Though I respect you feel differently.

You are correct, they will always exist, but I honestly dont mind them if they are used secretly by a tiny minority that has to actively hide from SE.

Right now SE might as well have given their approval when people watch streams with people using similar addons or even basic addons and never getting punished for it even though they are all against the ToS, the previous rule of "use it but be quiet about it" worked as long as we dont have streamers influencing thousands by using addons publicly like that and saying its cool. Because afaik only some JP streamer got banned, there's a ton of western streamers who used addons publicly and didnt get banned.

The fun part of don't ask don't tell (/s lol). I'm not particularly against addons, as I actually loved them in WoW even when they were annoying due to a patch (but that was in part because Blizzard didn't really care to ensure things worked). I understand some concerns are placed upon them, some of which I can vaguely understand and some of which I feel are stretched. I believe having a publicly allowed parser can do things like it did in WoW, but I don't really believe a private, allowed, would cause many if any issues. Some people may ask to see your parse, which you could simply lie or tell them to go get Thal'd lol. Though similarly I respect the concern, and community management is something difficult to get back on track once you feel you've lost it.. so... conservative approach isn't mystifying.

I will utterly and completely disagree with that, people usually end up tunnel visioning and having the addon or raid leader wake them up to the mechanic because you often see if the raid lead forgets to mention something many people screw up because they depend on addon/raid lead to tell them "Yo, mechanic inbound". Which imo is completely wrong, a raid lead should be there for when there's uncertainty and people have to make a decision quick, not to literally baby sit you and tell you when mechanics happen, that should be personal responsibility.

Which is a terrible thing because there's many mechanics that require you to track add positioning or some type of visual element that changes over the duration of the encounter that might come from some random direction, so if you are to respond adequately you need to also pay attention to it and not just forget it until the last minute call else you might not have enough time or space to survive.

This SERIOUS lack of spacial awareness is something very common in WoW's high end content and that is because people never learned the mechanic through in game visual signs to begin with and instead depended on addons or raid leads.

And its not just "oh our players are getting better", mechanics become far easier when you have a timer or unique mechanic announcing sounds, it literally is easy mode with them which results in dev having to make it even harder to compensate for the use of such addons which leads to more complicated mechanics and further problems, hence why such addons shouldnt be tolerated publicly, let them exist only in the shadows unlike know where they are literally public. And that will also hurt streamers who cant clear without addon help xd

I think you agree with me but maybe disagree on wording. Because what I meant is that, like a baby sitter raid leader, the tool will keep you hyper informed. GET OUT OF LAVA, STAND IN CIRCLE, GO TO "X" PLAYER. This to me is called awareness, now you might like it if I called it artificial awareness since it wasn't a skill provided by the player but rather by a parrot shouting mechanics.. but functionally it's still awareness.

As such if a player is more aware, whether naturally or artificially, this has an impact on play ability. Such that I would argue on a aggregate whole such tools have a direct impact in the ability of players and thus allow them to perform better more consistently while using less personal stress / skills. For me in WoW for example I found the tool helpful to casually enjoy harder content, as I can easily follow instructions but I just don't want to memorize the fights lol. Having used the DBM type stuff in WoW (another one existed back then too) I would argue it was a direct impact on my ability to output high performance while also feeling less challenged at the same time. Naturally this impacts perception for both players and developers. "This content is easy" says the player with the professional never wrong parrot- silly statement, and may cause damage to players who don't use the tool (and likely annoyance to the devs). Also messes with statistics and expectations devs have of players. Then again I feel given SE tests their own content, to which I assume, without tools I think they have significantly dampened the damage from the situation and such I am less worried about it and don't care. If someone uses to have a more stress free / easy experience then whatever. In most situations I don't care if someone made it a bit easier in such a way, though I can see how doing it for the hardest content in the game as a race of skill is quite upsetting.

Personally I don't think being aggressive on banning will help much on the situation, particularly if they don't scan the PCs (in that case, pretty much just hot air even if they punish a few streamers), but I do think adding the things players think are useful without damaging intended gameplay is a smart alleviation to dissuade more people from feeling the need to use the third party tools. Also may consider adding an official framework to which you could have even more control over the situation, but /shrug. The whole situation will feel like variations of losing no matter what lol. I've been okay with the don't ask don't tell type policy but certainly I see ultimate's can make that more frustrating for those who want to show off their talents (particularly speaking ultimate, as otherwise I generally think people playing how they want is fine so long as it's not like toggle god mode or infinite gil hacks lol).

[Kolsykol]

This is just a total non-issue that people are turning into an issue and it's kinda embarrassing tbh.
I do think it's a very small minority and primarily people who have a history of just going out of their way to intentionally get upset at the devs for everything even just totally imagined issues.
It kinda speaks volumes too for how good we actually have it when you consider the issues they get mad about compared to other games.

But it's kinda embarrassing when it's brought to the attention of people outside of the community.
Anyone above the age 9 and who's even just slightly charitable with their interpretation understands exactly what Yoshida meant.
Nothing at all has changed and they shouldn't have to treat people like children in how they speak about things.

[Vencio]

Simple….


We have youtube guide videos for raid mechanics understanding, there’s ingame markers for positioning, effective communication, accept trial & error happens, still be persistent,

There shouldn’t be any addons/mod at all…..nothing it brings justifies the outcome of success except through reinforcing it as a meta,

It shouldn’t be a thing at all….period

[Rolder50]

Simple….


We have youtube guide videos for raid mechanics understanding, there’s ingame markers for positioning, effective communication, accept trial & error happens, still be persistent,

There shouldn’t be any addons/mod at all…..nothing it brings justifies the outcome of success except through reinforcing it as a meta,

It shouldn’t be a thing at all….period

I dunno, using Discord for communication and Youtube for guides smells like third party tools to me. In-game only with no assistance or it's not a real clear, I say!

[EnigmaticDodo]

I dunno, using Discord for communication and Youtube for guides smells like third party tools to me. In-game only with no assistance or it's not a real clear, I say!

Funny joke.

[eagledorf]

I dunno, using Discord for communication and Youtube for guides smells like third party tools to me. In-game only with no assistance or it's not a real clear, I say!

Your argument is so disingenuous. Having an addon that hooks the memory and announces mechanics prior to the tell rendering is not the same as a program that doesn't interact with the game in any way and allows people to interact via voice.

[Maxilor]

I dunno, using Discord for communication and Youtube for guides smells like third party tools to me. In-game only with no assistance or it's not a real clear, I say!

Where do you find yourself on the chart?