The Problem(s) with Paladin

[Duelle]

Sadly we got the WoW version of PLD, only difference is in WoW they can tank somethings even though a WAR is still better at it.

False. When Paladin tanking was changed in the Burning Crusade, they were better tanks for 10-man raids (karazhan, Gruul's Lair) because they had an easier time holding multiple mobs, whereas Warrior tanks had to do a ton of stance dancing and use moves outside of the enmity bonuses gained by Defensive Stance. Hell, pallies were even better for heroics like Heroic Shattered Halls.

When hybrids were changed as a whole in Wrath of the Lich King, paladins jumped to being one of the more popular tanks because of how Consecration and Hammer of the Righteous made it easy to hold multiple mobs and Avenger's Shield being an excellent pulling tool.

While paladins were seen as the trash tanks in TBC (mostly because people were having a really hard time seeing them as something other than healers), it was a ripple that became a tsunami by the time WotLK came. So no, Paladin tanks in in WoW were not notably inferior. Besides, if we had gotten the WoW version of Paladins in this game, we would be doing a ton of holy damage off of our attacks, we'd probably have a two-hander DPS option and could probably heal if we set our stats and geared for it.

PS: And we'd be much more proficient at AoE tanking. If you have to make a WoW comparison, what we got is closer to how prot warriors in WoW function, minus awesome stuff like Thunderclap, Shockwave, and the enmity bonuses from a defensive stance.

[SwordCoheir]

We've shown in real tests that WAR takes 3-5x the damage PLD takes over time, it just does has higher DPS so people assume a faster fight = a more successful/safer fight - Which is not always true.

Actually that is true, in a standalone solo setting the numbers turn out in favor of PLD on the account they can sustain the damage and are given a length of time to actually do damage in return. In a party setting however if a mob dies overall faster with one person taking the brunt of the damage the damage built up from the fight wouldn't amount to as much.

Taking Ifrit as an example, most decent speed runs can kill him with roughly 7-8 Minutes with a WAR tank, and 10-12 with a PLD tank. A WAR might take 650-700 damage average from an auto attack, and PLD might take 600-650. That 50-100 damage might build up on WAR over time, but if your taking two or three more minutes on a fight with PLD, your taking 600-650 more damage every attack in the span of that extra time which would likely nullify or fall behind any extra damage WAR might have taken.

Bare in Mind WAR can actually counter Ifrit's Regen whereas PLD cannot, so when your DD's are running from Eruption he's gaining health back making the fight take longer.

I like the idea of VIT + MND being the attack stats for PLD, but can see why that would be unfair.
War has STR and VIT as well. Which doesn't leave a reason to add MND. So it looses a bit on MDEF.
So to give PLD to ability to stack VIT + MND giving it superior strength and defense (leaving room to add attack to boost it even more) May not be good in the long run. (could we get a VIT + MND materia please!!!)

Actually MND has no effect on magic defense in this game, it all comes down to VIT in configuring all damage calculations.

Why does Holy Succor not stack with Sacred Prism?!!?

When they brought the jobs in they specifically reworded Sacred Prism from Healing Spells to Cure, Cura, Esuna, and Regen. I was pretty pissed about this too because it would have given PLD a bit more utility, a bigger hate tool, and maybe allow them to become a supplemented healer (provided their MP could hold out). Maybe it was some in game mechanic they couldn't fix when it came to the healing bonus when curing others effect, I dunno.

[Zantetsuken]

good joke. once a paladin runs out of mp they have a lot of problems surviving. 3-5 times the damage; what shit ass warriors are you using?

Allow me to direct you here.
Take the test and post your results - if you can be honest about it.

[Zantetsuken]

Actually that is true, in a standalone solo setting the numbers turn out in favor of PLD on the account they can sustain the damage and are given a length of time to actually do damage in return. In a party setting however if a mob dies overall faster with one person taking the brunt of the damage the damage built up from the fight wouldn't amount to as much. .

Except you aren't taking into account that the PLD can work with one WHM and a BRD, where a WAR typically needs 2x WHM.

PLD+BRD+WHM is putting out decent DPS, as to whether or not it beats out the WAR+ WHM+WHM is up to the players and situation, but I think it likely does.

I'd actually like to do some Ifrit testing with this approach (same PTs, all members in AF, etc).. My guess is that all other things being equal, the PLD will have the edge.

One last thing: Speed runs usually means DD are running hot on enmity (which PLD controls better than WAR now).. So you run the risk of higher deaths which in turn results in slower runs at best and losses at worst. Its another thing to factor in.

Test first, QQ later.

[Alerith]

good joke. once a paladin runs out of mp they have a lot of problems surviving. 3-5 times the damage; what shit ass warriors are you using?

In what battle are you running out of MP?

i don't want to play the dd tank, i want to play paladin but i can't because it just. doesn't. work.

It works just fine. Gear only makes up so much of the equation, and we're left with skill to fill in the rest. A Paladin, without a doubt, can see your group to victory in 100% of the content in this game.

It may be unbalanced, it may be undesirable, but it does work.

[Eagleheart]

Except you aren't taking into account that the PLD can work with one WHM and a BRD, where a WAR typically needs 2x WHM.

PLD+BRD+WHM is putting out decent DPS, as to whether or not it beats out the WAR+ WHM+WHM is up to the players and situation, but I think it likely does.

I'd actually like to do some Ifrit testing with this approach (same PTs, all members in AF, etc).. My guess is that all other things being equal, the PLD will have the edge.

One last thing: Speed runs usually means DD are running hot on enmity (which PLD controls better than WAR now).. So you run the risk of higher deaths which in turn results in slower runs at best and losses at worst. Its another thing to factor in.

Test first, QQ later.

Please refrain from baiting other posters. I would like to keep the thread as polite as possible.

With that said, I will look you up tonight for an Ifrit run. I am curious as to why you want everyone to wear full AF, though. What does it matter what the DD's gear is, so long as it is the same for both Paladin and Warrior's attempts?

Also, I still have not seen an answer regarding WHM quantity between the two tanks.

[Eagleheart]

It works just fine. Gear only makes up so much of the equation, and we're left with skill to fill in the rest. A Paladin, without a doubt, can see your group to victory in 100% of the content in this game.

It may be unbalanced, it may be undesirable, but it does work.

Thereby furthering the case for the existence of the thread. o.o

[Luhy]

There is one problem with Paladin. It doesn't build hate as quickly at the start of a fight.

I tried Paladin on Chimera last night. Even though I took much less damage and by the end, had way more hate (and did more DoT) than a WAR, everyone complained that they had to hold off when we first engaged. Antagonize + AF Helm is still too strong and with speed runs, people aren't comfortable with that. Speed runs need to be eliminated or PLD needs a move for burst enmity+ Maybe Spirits Within or Hallowed Ground could give +3000 Enmity or something like that.

[SionDurant]

Greetings.

Allow me to preface my post by saying that I am very grateful to Yoshi P, Dev Team, and the community reps for all their hard work on FFXIV, and I profoundly wish for 2.0 to be a blockbuster success. ( o.O) I pay for two accounts, I have been since payment requirement resumed, and I will continue to for the foreseeable future.

I'd also like to say to the community reps who will hopefully read this (;@_@) Your patience astounds me. If I had your job, I'd have nuked the entire forum from orbit by this point. Thanks very much for all that you endure.

My post today is in regards to Paladin and how it still falters in its assigned role. Paladin struggles to find a niche in the current Jobs lineup, and I think it very important to consider that it is not tweaks and adjustments, but rather, a concept change, to bring Paladin up to speed with the current, and, to the best of my knowledge, future direction of the game.

Below are the points I've prepared. (>> ) Tried to make 'em quick and concise, and easy to pore over.


(1. HP
Strong oneshot moves are a much greater threat to PLD than WAR. Period.
Shield block does not proc on 100-tonze swing, for example. Further addressed in Defense.


(2. Offense
Paladin has no capacity to assist in speed runs, and its existing abilities are not sufficient for crowd control, even when not gunning for speed runs. Even Circle Slash was taken away.

Game is AOE-centric, Paladin has nothing for that. Cannot even use Foresight/Overpower, because Paladin is denied the capacity to parry.

(3. Defense
Parrying is superior to Shield block, period. Takes 2-3 shield blocks to equal damage mitigation of one parry.

Warrior received an ostensible nerf in Rampage adjustment, nerf actually turned into a big buff. Paladin's half-a-minute guaranteed blocks do not compete with Rampage parrying enhancement.

If a Warrior is under attack, their Rampage is not going to fade, it's going to stay. This goes doubly if they are under attack from multiple targets. Concept design of Rampage adjustment flawed.

Paladin is no better at dealing with magic attacks than Warrior. Until 1.22a hotfix, it was, in fact, worse, due to Fighter's Cuirass/Vengeance. Hallowed Ground is 15 minutes, and so does not give Paladin a real edge against magic monsters, as it's a 20-second desperation ability, on a long cooldown, not something you use to keep damage manageable throughtout a fight.

All of the above ignores that any critical hits the Warrior lands replenishes the Warrior's HP due to Rampage, and that this HP resupply is inexhaustible, unlike Paladin's hapless MP pool.

Warrior damage mitigation now equal to, arguably superior to Paladin, IN ADDITION to their higher HP.

(4. Mods
Paladin's offense is further hampered by requiring MND as their secondary.

MND is hard to gear for when tanking. VIT and HP are what a tank usually loads up on, VIT happens to be secondary mod for WAR's damage, and Warrior does not need to build for HP, leaving them free to gear for offense, which Paladin cannot do without compromising their already-weak survivability.

Paladin suffers a loss of STR from GLA, further hampering its already-low offensive stats and capacity.


Bullet points, the tl;dr version of tl;dr!


- Warrior survivability higher than Paladin

- Warrior utility in multiple-target situations vastly superior to Paladin

- Warrior defensive capacity equal to or superior to Paladin

- Warrior equip optimization for tanking allows them to gear for additional damage without sacrificing survivability. Paladin must gear specifically to match Warrior survivability, thereby falling further behind offensively.

- Warrior offensive capacity vastly superior to Paladin, marginally less so after 1.22a. Riot Blade is still eighty seconds, and Rage of Halone is 30. That makes no sense. Warrior combos are faster, and still stronger.

- Removal of enmity bonus from Phalanx hurt. A lot.
No, seriously. Phalanx was actually useful when it had an enmity bonus. Now, it's just a low-damage throwaway, or opener for Spirits once a minute.

- Second Wind is freebie. Holy Succor is not.

- In order to actually get any MP from Outmaneuver, you have to pair it with Divine Veil. Waste of an ability slot, since you only ever use Outmaneuver if Divine Veil is ready.

- Warrior AF is useful. Paladin AF is not.

- No, seriously. Two pieces of gear with either straight enmity, or an enmity bonus effect, and offensive stats/solid HP (in the case of Fighter's Burgeonet and Fighter's Breeches) is vastly superior to five pieces with Enmity from 1 to 5, and lackluster tanking stats.
There is a good reason Touch of Rage materia got doubled in potency. Enmity is very incremental in effect, Paladin's AF enmity is *worthless*.

- Paladin is at a disadvantage while kiting, needs to stop and cast magic to heal itself, Warrior has Second Wind/Featherfoot, can dodge a hit, restore HP, keep going. This might not be so bad if Warrior was not already superior in all other categories. Instant cast Holy Succor would help this, an abrupt halt can be managed with turn-to-face-target H key before starting cast.

- Flat Blade's high enmity modifier is good, but the weaponskill itself is rather weak. Strong targets reduce the effectiveness of Flat Blade to being roughly equal to Skull sunder, perhaps a little weaker.
Again, this might not be such a problem if Warrior was not already superior to Paladin in every other category.

- Warrior has Antagonize IN ADDITION to Sentinel. Antagonize with AF head is a 1.65x enmity multiplier, 1.5x without. Paladin has nothing even remotely close. WAR AF head also has +60 HP, small bonuses to their damage mods, and +10 crit rate. PLD AF head has a good MND bonus in comparison, but no HP.

- Antagonize affects all abilities. Sentinel, at this time, only affects damage from auto-attack and weaponskills.

- Collusion. Partially nerfed, but another enmity advantage over Paladin, while Warrior already has no problem competing with/besting Paladin in enmity output.

- Cure enmity is divided up amongst active opponents, according to player testing. Enmity incurred from a Holy Succor divided amongst six to eight targets is inconsequential.

- Stat comparison:

HP: WAR +400
MP: PLD+700 (irrelevant to WAR)
STR: WAR+20 (mod for both PLD and WAR)
VIT: PLD+12 (mod for WAR)
DEX: WAR+21 (Parry/block rate)
INT: WAR+30 (Irrelevant to both)
MND: PLD+21 (mod for PLD)
PIE: PLD+30 (With all that PIE noted there, PLD has a total of +8 magic evasion over WAR. Fellow posters, please do not begin ranting about how Paladin is superior on magic mobs. That number is flatly irrelevant, and we all know it.)

Summation:

Paladin fails to be a superior single-target tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior multiple-target tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior offensive tank.

Paladin fails to be a superior defensive tank.

Warrior is still superior in all categories. They might have actually increased their lead now with Rampage becoming better at defense.

Paladin cannot even adequately defend itself, let alone party members. The concept of Cover is slightly flawed in XIV, because if your target is out amongst the mages, your most immediate problem is not the physical attacks the mob will deal to its current target, but rather, the powerful AOEs that it will use instead. Cover does not actually provide much in the way of protecting the party.

A damage reduction aura would be a better application for Cover, or a new ability once level cap is raised, rather than simply replacing Cover as it is now. The central point is that Paladin needs to be able to do three things effectively;

(1. Keep the target/targets enmity on the Paladin.

(2. Survive the enemy's assault.

(3. Minimize the risk to the rest of the party as they attack the target, and facilitate the no-holds-barred beatdown of the target. Hate redirection, damage mitigation auras, enfeebling of the enemy (defense down, evasion down, crit evasion down), et cetera. Divine Regen is a good idea in this vein, and a good start. Collusion falls under this category, but a better idea for Paladin is, again, mitigation of incoming damage for the party, and enhancement of the party's offensive capacity against the enemy.

The latter is doubly important if Paladin is to remain void of AOE damage potential.

Give parties a real reason to want a Paladin along.


Thank you for your consideration. (_ _ ) {/bow}

+1

I agree with everything, although I didn't see MP as an issue. I think MP should be regenerated by a consistent means, maybe through blocks or some sort of self buff.

[Zumi]

Except you aren't taking into account that the PLD can work with one WHM and a BRD, where a WAR typically needs 2x WHM.

PLD+BRD+WHM is putting out decent DPS, as to whether or not it beats out the WAR+ WHM+WHM is up to the players and situation, but I think it likely does.

I'd actually like to do some Ifrit testing with this approach (same PTs, all members in AF, etc).. My guess is that all other things being equal, the PLD will have the edge.

One last thing: Speed runs usually means DD are running hot on enmity (which PLD controls better than WAR now).. So you run the risk of higher deaths which in turn results in slower runs at best and losses at worst. Its another thing to factor in.

Test first, QQ later.

The tank isn't the only one taking damage. You still need 2 whms to take care of the other people taking damage. Those people who eat flares on the mog fight, people who get hit by cracks on ifrit and die. 2 Regens for running through AV.