The Problem(s) with Paladin

[Arkine]

Just finished CC as WAR tank.
Hate was an issue I was Antagonizing/sentinel on steel cyclone. I lost hate and wiped.
I checked my log to notice cyclone critting 79 damage on Chimera....
Then I used PLD, Riot, Goring and Spirits all hit 300+ dmg on chimera and no hate issues whatever.

That cyclone nerf really shows on high defense bosses. I used to crit at least 400 on chimera with cyclone

So people will use the same old WAR/BLM/BRD stacking method but have 1 person change to PLD when they get to Chimera.

Speed runs needs to go away.

[Daniel_Fury]

So people will use the same old WAR/BLM/BRD stacking method but have 1 person change to PLD when they get to Chimera.

Speed runs needs to go away.

Pretty much. I just did not expect WAR to be outdps'd by PLD on Chimera. Much of a shock tbh.

[SwordCoheir]

Just finished CC as WAR tank.
Hate was an issue I was Antagonizing/sentinel on steel cyclone. I lost hate and wiped.
I checked my log to notice cyclone critting 79 damage on Chimera....
Then I used PLD, Riot, Goring and Spirits all hit 300+ dmg on chimera and no hate issues whatever.

That cyclone nerf really shows on high defense bosses. I used to crit at least 400 on chimera with cyclone

Ironically Chimera seems to be the one and only instance PLD really seems to excel over wAR, and I think alot of that is due to PLD's self sustainability since overall physical damage seems to be low yielding low returns on Rampage and the constant running to avoid it's moves lowers WAR's overall DPS.

I can't really comment on Steel Cyclone's nerf, I haven't seen any real difference in damage yet, maybe when I go and do Garuda or something later I'll see a more significant difference in my numbers.

[Velhart]

Why would anyone wear full AF? It's really bad. Go to the wards and spend 100k on some upgrades.

PLD AF would be incredible if the game actually focused on Defense/Abilities more and not how much you can boost your HP.

[Bracan]

only read the Op post so dunno if anyone else has the same idea as me but turn paladin it into Dark Knight make its armour darker and give it some spells and give it a selection of sword and axes to use, and make it a DD class.

give War the choice of great sword, sword + shield or great axe.

I mean I'm no balance or gaming expert I just like more choice and a more diverse selection for everyone not everyone pimping about in the same weapon

and obviously balance the jobs defence and such like but I personally think they were stuck between two ideas in the sense of one being a tank and other being a DD they mixed and matched it as we all know.

back to the drawing board again SE.....

[LytheJade]

It sounds more like people just prefer War over Pld and a lot less like Pld is somehow not measuring up to War.

This debate reminds me way too much of Ninja Vs Pld in 11, and sounds like people just do not want to tank with a classic tank. I know a bit of over-simplification, but, this is an MMO, people are always going to push for the highest numbers, and, well, SE will never intentionally make a tank job that simply holds hate against everything everyone throws at a mob. The concept is not only silly, it is self-defeating in the end. But, I suppose, they could always try and give you want you ask for (I am not trying to sound crass). I am curious to see how it would work.

And the funny part is, the Skill vs argument is already starting... I have already heard too many stories about how Pld has measured up, and too many arguments about how "Well, it may work for you, when we try a Pld they go squish" or something along that lines.

From the sound of it, Pld is now the job that has reached a point that SE has been striving for. People need to know how to use the job for it to be good. War on the other-hand became the job, Zerg it, and it will all just die.

And the people have decided, they just want things to die... (ok, that was being a little crass).

[Velhart]

It sounds more like people just prefer War over Pld and a lot less like Pld is somehow not measuring up to War.

This debate reminds me way too much of Ninja Vs Pld in 11, and sounds like people just do not want to tank with a classic tank. I know a bit of over-simplification, but, this is an MMO, people are always going to push for the highest numbers, and, well, SE will never intentionally make a tank job that simply holds hate against everything everyone throws at a mob. The concept is not only silly, it is self-defeating in the end. But, I suppose, they could always try and give you want you ask for (I am not trying to sound crass). I am curious to see how it would work.

And the funny part is, the Skill vs argument is already starting... I have already heard too many stories about how Pld has measured up, and too many arguments about how "Well, it may work for you, when we try a Pld they go squish" or something along that lines.

From the sound of it, Pld is now the job that has reached a point that SE has been striving for. People need to know how to use the job for it to be good. War on the other-hand became the job, Zerg it, and it will all just die.

And the people have decided, they just want things to die... (ok, that was being a little crass).

A good WAR will always be better than a good PLD.

I don't believe the topic is on making PLD work, because technically, it does work and is useable in content. The problem is that it just no where near measures up to what WAR can give. You can cut WAR's usefulness by half and it would still be a better tank than PLD right now.

If people look at having PLD as a challenge and gloating they can beat a dungeon with it, then there is a problem. Even those people are acknowledging PLD is a bad tank to use and they work with it.

Honestly, I rather PLD be the superior tank over WAR. While WAR should be able to tank in his own unique way, I want PLD to be the one people depend on. Unlike PLD, WAR can specialize in both tanking and be a full time DPS, which isn't completely fair to the PLD. PLD needs to be the ultimate tank.

Like I said, if you want to fix PLD, just make their abilities generate a lot more hate than they do now, and change the stats that Defense > HP, and PLD would be good to go.

[Biggs]

A good WAR will always be better than a good PLD.

I don't believe the topic is on making PLD work, because technically, it does work and is useable in content. The problem is that it just no where near measures up to what WAR can give. You can cut WAR's usefulness by half and it would still be a better tank than PLD right now.

If people look at having PLD as a challenge and gloating they can beat a dungeon with it, then there is a problem. Even those people are acknowledging PLD is a bad tank to use and they work with it.

Honestly, I rather PLD be the superior tank over WAR. While WAR should be able to tank in his own unique way, I want PLD to be the one people depend on. Unlike PLD, WAR can specialize in both tanking and be a full time DPS, which isn't completely fair to the PLD. PLD needs to be the ultimate tank.

Like I said, if you want to fix PLD, just make their abilities generate a lot more hate than they do now, and change the stats that Defense > HP, and PLD would be good to go.

Agreed. I think they could easily make PLD the go to job for tanking large scale nm and dungeon bosses, while still keeping war good for tanking everything else. Sadly they can't even seem to give us a single one up over Warriors in any catagory, much like the OP pointed out.

[Eagleheart]

A good WAR will always be better than a good PLD.

I don't believe the topic is on making PLD work, because technically, it does work and is useable in content. The problem is that it just no where near measures up to what WAR can give. You can cut WAR's usefulness by half and it would still be a better tank than PLD right now.

If people look at having PLD as a challenge and gloating they can beat a dungeon with it, then there is a problem. Even those people are acknowledging PLD is a bad tank to use and they work with it.

Honestly, I rather PLD be the superior tank over WAR. While WAR should be able to tank in his own unique way, I want PLD to be the one people depend on. Unlike PLD, WAR can specialize in both tanking and be a full time DPS, which isn't completely fair to the PLD. PLD needs to be the ultimate tank.

Like I said, if you want to fix PLD, just make their abilities generate a lot more hate than they do now, and change the stats that Defense > HP, and PLD would be good to go.

This post succinctly describes the problem.

You can do it with Paladin. It is not a particularly attractive option, though.

There's no reason to want a Paladin. It doesn't bring its own unique edge to the group.

People say that "If you have a Paladin, you don't need two white mages." I feel a bit dumb for asking, but in what situation does a Paladin's presence no longer necessitate two white mages?

The reason you have two white mages in any given "two white mage" event is to maintain the HP of the party, not the tank. You do not bring two white mages to Ifrit to save the tank, you bring two white mages to Ifrit to keep the DD afloat. You do not bring two white mages to Moogle solely to keep the tank alive, you bring two white mages to keep the party alive when the moogles AOE or swap targets. You do not bring two white mages to Garuda, because it can be accomplished with only one white mage.

You do not bring two white mages to EXP, because it simply isn't necessary with Regenga. o.o In what situation do you bring two white mages for the tank? I know of none. This supposed edge over Warrior simply doesn't exist.

[Duelle]

It sounds more like people just prefer War over Pld and a lot less like Pld is somehow not measuring up to War.

Straight-forward vs needlessly complex. The prevalence of K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple, Stupid) removes any doubt of which would be more popular.

This debate reminds me way too much of Ninja Vs Pld in 11, and sounds like people just do not want to tank with a classic tank. I know a bit of over-simplification, but, this is an MMO, people are always going to push for the highest numbers, and, well, SE will never intentionally make a tank job that simply holds hate against everything everyone throws at a mob.

You cite an incorrect example, which goes beyond simplification. People liked NIN tanks because they took no damage. No damage = less MP spent curing them = faster kills due to less resting = more EXP/hour.

Tanking with a classic tank can work, but the classic tank has to also adapt to what the modern MMO design calls for. You can't get away with having a tank that does 20 DPS when you have a tank that can go a better job at holding mobs and does 70 DPS. This isn't 1997 and we're not playing Everquest. If multi-target Flash could be acquired earlier in the game and War Drum did decent damage, had a good and noticeable enmity spike and was on a shorter cooldown, GLA/PLD would be part of the way to catching up to WAR on multiple mobs.

As I mentioned somewhere else, the main problem comes from the difference in weapon damage and how much it affects damage potential because of it. We wouldn't be having these problems if WAR tanking involved a one-handed axe and a shield. The playing field needs to be levelled between both jobs and any future additions to prevent this current issue from lingering, because at no point should game mechanics ever encourage the community to use one and not the other(s).