The Problem(s) with Paladin

[SwordCoheir]

Just finished CC as WAR tank.
Hate was an issue I was Antagonizing/sentinel on steel cyclone. I lost hate and wiped.
I checked my log to notice cyclone critting 79 damage on Chimera....
Then I used PLD, Riot, Goring and Spirits all hit 300+ dmg on chimera and no hate issues whatever.

That cyclone nerf really shows on high defense bosses. I used to crit at least 400 on chimera with cyclone

Ironically Chimera seems to be the one and only instance PLD really seems to excel over wAR, and I think alot of that is due to PLD's self sustainability since overall physical damage seems to be low yielding low returns on Rampage and the constant running to avoid it's moves lowers WAR's overall DPS.

I can't really comment on Steel Cyclone's nerf, I haven't seen any real difference in damage yet, maybe when I go and do Garuda or something later I'll see a more significant difference in my numbers.

[Airget]

(2. Offense
Paladin has no capacity to assist in speed runs, and its existing abilities are not sufficient for crowd control, even when not gunning for speed runs. Even Circle Slash was taken away.

Game is AOE-centric, Paladin has nothing for that. Cannot even use Foresight/Overpower, because Paladin is denied the capacity to parry.

I think it's wrong to take Paladin on an offensive route when it comes to adjusting their ability in speedruns. Rather make them more supportive in helping the party take down the enemy with the following abilities.

With the following abilities I would add the following:
Phalanx: 2% DMG mitigation (stacks up to 3 times) Duration 30 seconds
War Drum: AOE ATT up Duration 30 seconds
Flash: chance at Defense down, AOE Duration 20 second (or however long the MRD's Att down one last)

I think simply adding this kind of support to PLD would encourage parties to use them and at the same time prevent them from just making them a warrior with a sword if one were to just give them an AOE WS. The weird thing is when it comes to the GLA Flash and the MRD Provoke, the Provoke is a lot better since it's "enhance" effect grants an att down reducing dmg while sure flash can blind target, it's not a definitive boost like att down is. When you have attack down it's active 100% of the time til it wears off, with blind it may help you 5-75% of the duration. If they add a Defense down to Flash then it's effect would be useful for 100% of the duration since not only is it useful to everyone but it doesn't have a chance of helping you, once it's there it's there. It would also serve as a good parallel to MRD's Provoke, while they can inflict ATT down to a single target, a GLA can inflict an AOE DEF down.

Then you have War drum, an AOE that deals dmg with large enmity gains. It's called War Drum yet the name makes no sense for what it does lol. War Drum sounds like it should also include an AOE ATT boost to those in range lol.

Then of course Phalanx which is reduced to a single target attack that can only be used after blocking an attack. Doesn't really make much sense, with Phalanx it sounds like it should grant some sort of defensive boost so for 250 TP to add 2% DMG mitigation with needing 750 to reach 6% and then spending 250 for upkeep doesn't sound to bad imo. I mean to balance it out it could be that the Phalanx has to hit the target in order to gain the enhancement. So if you miss then you have to try and hit the target again before the duration wears off or else you gotta start all over again. It's kinda like the Dancer's steps which are used to enfeeble a foe but rather then enfeebling a foe this ability would be used to enhance your defensive abilities.

[Zantetsuken]

nice ideas; many of which we've all been saying the whole time and although they say they do, SE doesn't seem to listen to any of it. my thoughts:

aoe damage (buff damage ~100% and reduce c/d to 30sec on war drum)
revamp of blocking entirely (although they're going in the right direction. now onto dmg mitigation)
ability to parry (why the fc uk not? they have sword!? i can parry damn well in dark souls)
outmaneuver stance (raises block rate grants mp on block)
aegis boon stance (lowers block rate grants hp on block). BOOM!

or you can give them some useful ability-combo-heals and maybe a support stance so they can add to survivability of close ranged battles and debuff the enemy. i know a lot of people hate the paladin healer idea but it gives them and our current battle mechanics all new uses and possibilities.

The problem with most of your suggestions is that PLD currently has zero problems with surviving.

We've shown in real tests that WAR takes 3-5x the damage PLD takes over time, it just does has higher DPS so people assume a faster fight = a more successful/safer fight - Which is not always true.

The longer this goes on, and the more experience I get with both jobs, the more I think that this whole WAR > PLD thing is just really just a cultural and play-style issue rather than an actual balance one.

It seems that most people want to play the DD tank, Most people want to be in a PT where the tank is a DD, even if it had 1/4th the survival ability of a real tank. Players tend to get very myopic on DPS, and if WAR outclasses PLD in this area, they will even go so far as to sacrifice a real DD slot to 2nd WHM in order to make the PT work.

The question is whether WAR +2nd WHM is worth the DPS that a BRD will add in that same slot with a PLD build.

[Eagleheart]

The problem with most of your suggestions is that PLD has zero problems surviving. We've shown in real tests that WAR takes 3-5x the damage PLD takes over time, it just does has higher DPS so people assume a faster fight = a more successful/safer fight.

The longer this goes on, and the more experience I get with both jobs, the more I think that this whole WAR > PLD thing is just really just a cultural and play-style issue rather than an actual balance one.

It seems that most people want to play the DD tank, Most people want to be in a PT where the tank is a DD, even if it had 1/4th the survival ability of a real tank. Players tend to get very myopic on DPS, and if WAR outclasses PLD in this area, they will even go so far as to sacrifice a real DD slot to 2nd WHM in order to make the PT work.

The question is whether WAR +2nd WHM is worth the DPS that a BRD will add in that same slot with a PLD build.

I haven't yet seen a reply to my general inquiry from last page, so I will inquire again. In what scenarios do you see a second white mage being superfluous with a Paladin along?

My position is that a second white mage is present for the benefit of the melee, BLM, and BRDs, not for the tank, be it WAR or PLD. (>.> ) And 3-5x the damage that a Paladin takes seems to me to be something of an exaggeration.

[Bahnei]

I hope SE listens to you and they should...........

When it comes to PLD's, Eagle is the one to turn to, by far one of the best XI ever saw. Though I doubt they planed for PLD to be the same as XI but, it still isn't the role it should be and that's a tank, straight and true. Sadly we got the WoW version of PLD, only difference is in WoW they can tank somethings even though a WAR is still better at it. Was so happy to see PLD added to the game and then cried when people told me how horrible it was. :/ Good Luck~ but sadly they never listen when an intellegent thought does pop up in forums.

[Eagleheart]

Greetings Bahnei! \(^-^)/ TY for the kind words!!

I have never played World of Warcraft, so I am a bit at a loss as to how Paladin functioned in that game. x.x Can anyone enlighten me?

[ejiboo]

The problem with most of your suggestions is that PLD currently has zero problems with surviving...We've shown in real tests that WAR takes 3-5x the damage PLD takes over time.

good joke. once a paladin runs out of mp they have a lot of problems surviving. 3-5 times the damage; what shit ass warriors are you using?

now my paladin is probably much better than yours, cocky eh... i have all of my stats at, near or over their cap; str, mnd, vit and i even have some block rate in there with some pretty nice enmity and meva stuff. it takes more damage, is more of a pain in the ass to keep alive and although i hit surprisingly hard, it has way less utility. if it were balanced then people would use it. i don't want to play the dd tank, i want to play paladin but i can't because it just. doesn't. work.

[Earl_Caldera]

I agree with your whole post, Eagle, bravo!

As for everyone saying that Paladin is fine as is... That's kind of true, but someone in another thread said it best. Paladin -can- tank, however you have to examine how much effort it is to tank (you need gear, cause most pieces of AF stink.) Then compare it to what Warrior has to do in order to tank. They can essentially full-time AF and tank just fine (Not saying it's optimal, but the gear compliments their tanking style quite nicely as opposed to Paladin which does enhance them, but not in a way that is optimal to tanking in this game.

Also, compare how much skill/finesse it takes to tank on Paladin versus Warrior. Paladin, due to their low HP, if you mess up even slightly, you're done. Maybe not always, but generally speaking you have -no- room to screw up on Paladin. Warrior, you have some maneuvering space. You got hit by that Sand Pillar while tanking Chimera? No problem. You got hit by the Sand Pillar and one of Chimera's breaths? No problem.(Probably less realistic, but I'm sure you get the point.)

The idea is that the skill gap, or the amount of breathing room you have on these two jobs for the average player is too large. You should be able to pick up Paladin and tank without worries of losing hate or dying just as easily as you can on warrior.

[Judge_Xero]

As someone who also likes to play PLD. I really hope there are some changes to it.
Although I like War as well, cause it's the easy-mode Tank, PLD should be a lot better.

I like the idea of VIT + MND being the attack stats for PLD, but can see why that would be unfair.
War has STR and VIT as well. Which doesn't leave a reason to add MND. So it looses a bit on MDEF.
So to give PLD to ability to stack VIT + MND giving it superior strength and defense (leaving room to add attack to boost it even more) May not be good in the long run. (could we get a VIT + MND materia please!!!)

^^Edited: Not sure what I was thinking. Of course MND doesn't effect MDEF

Yes please - Mnd and Vit for PLD main stats.

AOE debuff skills would be excellent. - Def Down, Evasion Down.
Make War Drum stronger, with a lower cooldown, and make it stack well with Bloodbath.
Emnity Generation right now seems pretty good IMO. If they could balance what PLD can do on single target and give them more AOE skills, it would be a beast.

Make this combo work SE.
Divine Veil
Sacred Prism + Holy Succor. For an AOE Holy Succor, which would then heal the PLD for # of targets.
Activating Divine Veil, giving all members in range Divine Regen.
(I know it wouldn't actually work this way, but it should)

Why does Holy Succor not stack with Sacred Prism?!!?

Great suggestions everyone.

[Velhart]

Greetings Bahnei! \(^-^)/ TY for the kind words!!

I have never played World of Warcraft, so I am a bit at a loss as to how Paladin functioned in that game. x.x Can anyone enlighten me?

Paladin's in WoW are more fast paced and have a mix of damage and abilities that make it a good tank. FFXI, PLD's relied mostly on hate generated abilities and spells to hate on an enemy.

FFXIV's developers are attempting to make PLD's more interactive with attacks than they were in FFXI, which is what she was referring to.

But I will say, I will consider switching my main back to PLD if they manage to fix it. I was a main GLA before PLD came out.