The Problem(s) with Paladin

[Eagleheart]

Sadly they don't want to, they have already decided pld sucks, it's like trying to counter conspiracy theorists with logic and rational thought: if they can't counter your argument, you are a part of the conspiracy.

I disagree with the OP, pld AF gives more enmity than war's, the mnd is important for self heals and base damage, my only real problem with pld is that it seems to be hurting for accuracy.

It is not at all like that. (O.o) Firstly, that enmity is divided amongst five pieces, and, as mentioned earlier, enmity is very incremental in effect. Dev Team more than doubled the efficacy of Touch of Rage materia for this very reason. Additionally, Heavy Darklight has such massive enmity bonuses for the same reason. Stonewall Earring itself is nearly equal to Paladin AF's enmity bonus.

You are not part of any conspiracy, but your thinking is not backed up by the statistics in the game. (o.- ) And while the AF hat is indeed effective in increasing your secondary mod for damage, I invite you to consider your primary mod for a moment.

You also did not consider the division of Cure enmity amongst multiple targets, and there are many and varied better choices for Paladin equipment than Artifact. You also discounted the assertion of Antagonize and its lack of parallel in Paladin's arsenal, as well as many other points in mine, and others, posts.

Further evidence on the incremental nature of enmity in XIV: Maddening Potion. (o.0 ) Check it out, it's pretty crazy.

[Daniel_Fury]

Nicely made thread

I find that for AoE tanking, Gladiator is a much better use.
Say for example Cutters Cry, I can charge up 1k TP with Invigorate, rush in and use my usual hate skills but I can Keen Flurry my War Drum allowing me to use it twice in the time of its original cooldown and I use sentinel with Leg Sweep for the extra punch with hate.

When I get to Princess, I will swap to Paladin and tank both the Princess and Marshall at the same time with no emnity issues.

The only issue with the Princess fight is that I sometimes pull too many ant adds to me while tanking both bosses and can cause a nasty death if WHM's aren't prepared.

I use HP, MND and STR with a bit of VIT in my gear build. I almost always use my AF body and sometimes Crown if I don't need the extra HP (or 32 MND melded onto helm).

I agree that Paladin has been insignificant to Warrior lately but since cyclone got nerfed, it hits 500 damage crits on 53 enemies for me and I feel that AoE hate can be sketchy since 1.22a hotfix.

[Vanguard319]

It is not at all like that. (O.o) Firstly, that enmity is divided amongst five pieces, and, as mentioned earlier, enmity is very incremental in effect. Dev Team more than doubled the efficacy of Touch of Rage materia for this very reason. Additionally, Heavy Darklight has such massive enmity bonuses for the same reason. Stonewall Earring itself is nearly equal to Paladin AF's enmity bonus.

You are not part of any conspiracy, but your thinking is not backed up by the statistics in the game. (o.- ) And while the AF hat is indeed effective in increasing your secondary mod for damage, I invite you to consider your primary mod for a moment.

You also did not consider the division of Cure enmity amongst multiple targets, and there are many and varied better choices for Paladin equipment than Artifact. You also discounted the assertion of Antagonize and its lack of parallel in Paladin's arsenal, as well as many other points in mine, and others, posts.

Further evidence on the incremental nature of enmity in XIV: Maddening Potion. (o.0 ) Check it out, it's pretty crazy.

yes I've used maddening potion before, and I've also successfully tanked as a pld even before the last patch. The numbers only go so far, as your calculations can't account for an individual player's skill, you can easily have a pld who tanks well, and a war who can't tank to save his own life.

As for the enmity of pld af, they can fix that easily enough by adjusting the enmity each piece of AF has, I suspect that there will be some more adjustments on the devs part.

[NoloeTazier]

Agreed. If all endgame content is a speedrun or spam until the RNG finally lets you have the weapon you want Paladin will always be ignored. People will always go with Warrior because its simply the best. Every category is superior. You could take away Steel Cyclone from Warrior and give it a WS that makes the Warrior pull out a book to read for 30 seconds for no damage on any targets and it would still be better than Paladin.

[Kiara]

Hi Eagleheart,

Excellent post and great points!

You've hit many of the concerns myself and others have been posting about and offer up some good ideas to improve the Job.

While a straight Damage Mitigation / Defense Boost (in a meaningful way) would be a simple "fix" and partial improvement (e.g., a straight -20% Damage (All Types)), there is a key problem with the way Max Level Content is:

Speed Runs & Repeating Content (due to Low Drop Rates / Random Number Generator).

With this style of content right now (for Speed Runs, Darklight Gear, Primal Seals, etc.), most people want to get through the content as fast as possible, repeatedly. So just having Paladin take significantly less Damage will help a little, but doesn't make Speed Runs any faster.

I would like to see an inherent Damage Reduction Modifier added to Paladin (and/or recalculation so Defense stat matters more vs. high dLevel mobs), but to make them more desirable I definitely agree with your ideas like having some kind of:

Auras - Damage Mitigation Auras (like Rampart, but more powerful / effective / larger range), Enfeebling Auras (like a Defense Down) or Hate Redirection Auras.

All of these would be great to allow the Party to cut loose.

Damage Mitigation Auras would let Melee DDs (Monk, Dragoon) want to have a Paladin Tank (to lessen any close damage they're taking).

Enfeebling Auras (like a Defense Down, Magic Defense Down, etc.) would also help offset make the Paladin standout in its own way vs. a Warrior (that would still have its solid DPS / Offensive capabilities).

Maybe have Enhancing Auras as well, like Attack Up Aura (like a "Morale Boost!" / "For the King!" on the Party), would also be a way to make Paladin more desirable, because it would allow Party Members in the area of effect gain a boost to do more damage to kill the Mob faster.

Ultimately, it's about allowing Paladin some recourse to contribute to Fast / Efficient Runs / Multi-Mob Situations, and basically have them desirable as a Tank for most of the player base.

What's funny/sad is that of all the archetypal roles and Square trying to fill those roles, the Paladin is the most basic "Tank" Role (the ROCK / WALL that the party can rely on to just take a beating and keep on going and draw hate well) that's usually easiest to get right. Instead they're tiptoeing around the fundamental ways to really FIX Paladin and giving us tiny "tweaks" here and there.

I hope we get a Dev Response on this.

[SwordCoheir]

What's funny/sad is that of all the archetypal roles and Square trying to fill those roles, the Paladin is the most basic "Tank" Role (the ROCK / WALL that the party can rely on to just take a beating and keep on going and draw hate well) that's usually easiest to get right. Instead they're tiptoeing around the fundamental ways to really FIX Paladin and giving us tiny "tweaks" here and there.

I hope we get a Dev Response on this.

It's kind of funny though, even with rock wall archtypes they had capability to do decent damage in Final Fantasy games and most other MMO's and RPG's out there, and SE seems reluctant to try it with PLD/GLA though they're designing all it's game mechanics to work with a damage = hate mentality.

[Duelle]

It's kind of funny though, even with rock wall archtypes they had capability to do decent damage in Final Fantasy games and most other MMO's and RPG's out there, and SE seems reluctant to try it with PLD/GLA though they're designing all it's game mechanics to work with a damage = hate mentality.

This. Tank DPS matters. It's always mattered, but people took a long time to figure it out. It wouldn't be a problem if you restricted all tanks to a one-handed weapon and a shield, but when you start tossing in two-handed tanking and so on, you realize that unless you even the playing field again someone is going to be left out. That's when developers realized tank DPS matters.

Quick fix for Palladin. Give a holy buff/skill to the sword. And throw some undead mobs/ bosses.

This won't fix anything, and I say that as one of the ret paladins that massively benefitted from undead mobs in Naxxrammas and Icecrown Citadel. Being situationally better on a mob type only prolongs the innevitable.

[SwordCoheir]

This. Tank DPS matters. It's always mattered, but people took a long time to figure it out. It wouldn't be a problem if you restricted all tanks to a one-handed weapon and a shield, but when you start tossing in two-handed tanking and so on, you realize that unless you even the playing field again someone is going to be left out. That's when developers realized tank DPS matters.

Aye, like I said in my post on the previous page that gap in base damage is growing. Part of PLD's hate gaining abilities are attributed to the damage it can deal on Spirits/Flat Blade combos, weak damage = weak returns no matter the modifier. Hate gaining JA's are static so they're gonna grow weaker against DPS's Damage as levels rise, and if FFXI has taught us anything about game mechanics is static values can't compete after a point in the game. So the only thing you can do without overhauling the system itself is boost the overall base damage of a weapon to a comparable level with other weapons so at least a job with no DD abilities can at least function at an appropriate level and allow GLA who has access to DD capabilities to become a somewhat competent DD.

This won't fix anything, and I say that as one of the ret paladins that massively benefitted from undead mobs in Naxxrammas and Icecrown Citadel. Being situationally better on a mob type only prolongs the innevitable.

Correct. Creating a single useful niche doesn't help the job it just pigeonholes it.

[BlackomegaKingofwaffles]

This is a well put together list and addresses many of the big problems with pld, that being said se will probably ignore it in its entirety in favor of something silly and completely unrelated as far as future balances go.

[Noblewar]

I wouldnt even bother trying to fix PLD right now I would rather wait till Ninja comes out because we all know that Ninja is going to put PLD back in the hole.