The Problem(s) with Paladin

[Daniel_Fury]

So people will use the same old WAR/BLM/BRD stacking method but have 1 person change to PLD when they get to Chimera.

Speed runs needs to go away.

Pretty much. I just did not expect WAR to be outdps'd by PLD on Chimera. Much of a shock tbh.

[Eagleheart]

The tank isn't the only one taking damage. You still need 2 whms to take care of the other people taking damage. Those people who eat flares on the mog fight, people who get hit by cracks on ifrit and die. 2 Regens for running through AV.

That is precisely the issue here. (o.0 ) Well said.

[Duelle]

It sounds more like people just prefer War over Pld and a lot less like Pld is somehow not measuring up to War.

Straight-forward vs needlessly complex. The prevalence of K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple, Stupid) removes any doubt of which would be more popular.

This debate reminds me way too much of Ninja Vs Pld in 11, and sounds like people just do not want to tank with a classic tank. I know a bit of over-simplification, but, this is an MMO, people are always going to push for the highest numbers, and, well, SE will never intentionally make a tank job that simply holds hate against everything everyone throws at a mob.

You cite an incorrect example, which goes beyond simplification. People liked NIN tanks because they took no damage. No damage = less MP spent curing them = faster kills due to less resting = more EXP/hour.

Tanking with a classic tank can work, but the classic tank has to also adapt to what the modern MMO design calls for. You can't get away with having a tank that does 20 DPS when you have a tank that can go a better job at holding mobs and does 70 DPS. This isn't 1997 and we're not playing Everquest. If multi-target Flash could be acquired earlier in the game and War Drum did decent damage, had a good and noticeable enmity spike and was on a shorter cooldown, GLA/PLD would be part of the way to catching up to WAR on multiple mobs.

As I mentioned somewhere else, the main problem comes from the difference in weapon damage and how much it affects damage potential because of it. We wouldn't be having these problems if WAR tanking involved a one-handed axe and a shield. The playing field needs to be levelled between both jobs and any future additions to prevent this current issue from lingering, because at no point should game mechanics ever encourage the community to use one and not the other(s).

[Junpei]

There is one problem with Paladin. It doesn't build hate as quickly at the start of a fight.

I tried Paladin on Chimera last night. Even though I took much less damage and by the end, had way more hate (and did more DoT) than a WAR, everyone complained that they had to hold off when we first engaged. Antagonize + AF Helm is still too strong and with speed runs, people aren't comfortable with that. Speed runs need to be eliminated or PLD needs a move for burst enmity+ Maybe Spirits Within or Hallowed Ground could give +3000 Enmity or something like that.

A nice opening for PLD that generates a lot of hate you might be interested in

Divine veil + outmanouvre = a decent chunk of TP to activate
Sentinel -> flash -> voke = boosted enmity generation from the following abilities from sent and spike enmity from flash and voke
War drum -> phalanx -> spirits within (which is damage x2.5 = enmity)
and it shouldnt take long before you can
fast blade ->flat blade (which is damage x 5.5 = enmity)

little note: during that first part with divine veil up you cant be interupted from spell casting as blocks prevent it, so let your whm have you do the first holy succor on yourself, if you heal for 1k hp thats 600enmity in the bag right there)

(note - I do currently have +164 enmity (16.4%) but only 1 piece of Heavy Darklight :/)
I've been doing speed runs with CC and AV as well as getting 60k+ points in hamlet with only me on paladin.
The second group in our CC run uses a war and he stays as war till after the princess, Steel Cyclone out of combo for 1000 tp is a great cleanup for little ants, all the other DD in that fight go Dragoon and its simply amazing.


Paladin is a damn good tank, I can straight tank the coin counter now, dont even care about 1000t swing (aegis boon or sentinel & divine veil + holy succur (uninteruptable cast) , and every time he uses swipe its a riot blade in the ass for D-Down. On war it was a panic as a single screwup or lag whilst running from swing could bone everything.

There is a skill barrier with paladin. Warrior just needs an ice pack from the friction of rolling your face across the keyboard.

[Velhart]

because at no point should game mechanics ever encourage the community to use one and not the other(s).

Square-Enix needs to take this quote, write it on a sticky note, and slap it ontop of their forehead, so everytime they look in the mirror, they can remind themselves on how job structure should work.

[Eagleheart]

A nice opening for PLD that generates a lot of hate you might be interested in

Divine veil + outmanouvre = a decent chunk of TP to activate
Sentinel -> flash -> voke = boosted enmity generation from the following abilities from sent and spike enmity from flash and voke
War drum -> phalanx -> spirits within (which is damage x2.5 = enmity)
and it shouldnt take long before you can
fast blade ->flat blade (which is damage x 5.5 = enmity)

little note: during that first part with divine veil up you cant be interupted from spell casting as blocks prevent it, so let your whm have you do the first holy succor on yourself, if you heal for 1k hp thats 600enmity in the bag right there)

(note - I do currently have +164 enmity (16.4%) but only 1 piece of Heavy Darklight :/)
I've been doing speed runs with CC and AV as well as getting 60k+ points in hamlet with only me on paladin.
The second group in our CC run uses a war and he stays as war till after the princess, Steel Cyclone out of combo for 1000 tp is a great cleanup for little ants, all the other DD in that fight go Dragoon and its simply amazing.


Paladin is a damn good tank, I can straight tank the coin counter now, dont even care about 1000t swing (aegis boon or sentinel & divine veil + holy succur (uninteruptable cast) , and every time he uses swipe its a riot blade in the ass for D-Down. On war it was a panic as a single screwup or lag whilst running from swing could bone everything.

There is a skill barrier with paladin. Warrior just needs an ice pack from the friction of rolling your face across the keyboard.

100tonze is not only an immediate example, but a sample of things to come. Specifically designing a tank with low HP (partially fixed now) is fundamentally counterintuitive, and the issue will come up again in future content. Repeatedly, in fact.

Additionally, thank you for the note on the incremental nature of enmity. (O.o ) Some players do not believe how small an effect an individual enmity point has on your hate output. Another seasoned PLD pointing out the facts is always useful!

[Firon]

OP i agree with everything you said i want you like your post 10,000 times but sadly i can not. A Few things i wanted to note tho.

Like you said pld needs to be able to handle more mobs.

They could make cover act like Rampart, if cover hits anyone in range the monster attack will be auto directed to the user.

Flash: I would really like to them to make this skill act more like XI's version insane acc down that will make the mob usually miss their first attack before it wears.

War drum: This skill needs the block req removed and make it cost 500tp also make it so the skill forces pld to the top of the hate list for 10 secs for anything it hits.

Lastly DEF: This one annoys me the most cause i would like to know if the dev team can speak on if they are making stats work like shit on purpose. While this does include other classes when changing to jobs other stats need to change besides base stats.

GLA: DEF/MDEF should increase by 150 when changing to pld.

THM: Enfeebling magic pot/should increase by 100 when changing to BLM

CNJ: Should get 150 more Enhancing magic potency.

PGL; 100 Evasion when changing to mnk.

LNC: 50 attack power/50 crt hit rate when changing to drg

MRD: 75 DEF/75 attack when changing to war

ARC: idk don't play the class >_>.

I also think these should come with some other stat being reduced.

[Zantetsuken]

There is a skill barrier with paladin. Warrior just needs an ice pack from the friction of rolling your face across the keyboard.

Very good point.

When playing PLD, you are constantly busy and having to monitor MP, HP, Hate and the actions of the mob. Playing WAR is rather straight forward and offloads a decent portion of its work to the WHM.

In regards to player workload and attention level, I've found PLD (FFXIV) to be more reminiscent of NIN (FFXI), where WAR (FFXIV) plays like PLD (FFXI).

[Firon]

Very good point.

When playing PLD, you are constantly busy and having to monitor MP, HP, Hate and the actions of the mob. Playing WAR is rather straight forward and offloads a decent portion of its work to the WHM.

In regards to player workload and attention level, I've found PLD (FFXIV) to be more reminiscent of NIN (FFXI), where WAR (FFXIV) plays like PLD (FFXI).

What no way pld in XI was not face roll lol you had to be constantly rotating skills correctly to get hate. If anything nin was watching timers/landing debuffs if you didn't have a rdm.

[Zantetsuken]

What no way pld in XI was not face roll lol you had to be constantly rotating skills correctly to get hate. If anything nin was watching timers/landing debuffs if you didn't have a rdm.

Not completely analogous, but Nin was a far more intensive job overall. (until utsu timers/counters showed up)

Granted, I haven't played since WotG, so I have no idea what PLD or NIN are like now.