The Problem(s) with Paladin

[Velhart]

Greetings Bahnei! \(^-^)/ TY for the kind words!!

I have never played World of Warcraft, so I am a bit at a loss as to how Paladin functioned in that game. x.x Can anyone enlighten me?

Paladin's in WoW are more fast paced and have a mix of damage and abilities that make it a good tank. FFXI, PLD's relied mostly on hate generated abilities and spells to hate on an enemy.

FFXIV's developers are attempting to make PLD's more interactive with attacks than they were in FFXI, which is what she was referring to.

But I will say, I will consider switching my main back to PLD if they manage to fix it. I was a main GLA before PLD came out.

[ejiboo]

The problem with most of your suggestions is that PLD currently has zero problems with surviving...We've shown in real tests that WAR takes 3-5x the damage PLD takes over time.

good joke. once a paladin runs out of mp they have a lot of problems surviving. 3-5 times the damage; what shit ass warriors are you using?

now my paladin is probably much better than yours, cocky eh... i have all of my stats at, near or over their cap; str, mnd, vit and i even have some block rate in there with some pretty nice enmity and meva stuff. it takes more damage, is more of a pain in the ass to keep alive and although i hit surprisingly hard, it has way less utility. if it were balanced then people would use it. i don't want to play the dd tank, i want to play paladin but i can't because it just. doesn't. work.

[Zantetsuken]

good joke. once a paladin runs out of mp they have a lot of problems surviving. 3-5 times the damage; what shit ass warriors are you using?

Allow me to direct you here.
Take the test and post your results - if you can be honest about it.

[Alerith]

good joke. once a paladin runs out of mp they have a lot of problems surviving. 3-5 times the damage; what shit ass warriors are you using?

In what battle are you running out of MP?

i don't want to play the dd tank, i want to play paladin but i can't because it just. doesn't. work.

It works just fine. Gear only makes up so much of the equation, and we're left with skill to fill in the rest. A Paladin, without a doubt, can see your group to victory in 100% of the content in this game.

It may be unbalanced, it may be undesirable, but it does work.

[Eagleheart]

It works just fine. Gear only makes up so much of the equation, and we're left with skill to fill in the rest. A Paladin, without a doubt, can see your group to victory in 100% of the content in this game.

It may be unbalanced, it may be undesirable, but it does work.

Thereby furthering the case for the existence of the thread. o.o

[Airget]

(2. Offense
Paladin has no capacity to assist in speed runs, and its existing abilities are not sufficient for crowd control, even when not gunning for speed runs. Even Circle Slash was taken away.

Game is AOE-centric, Paladin has nothing for that. Cannot even use Foresight/Overpower, because Paladin is denied the capacity to parry.

I think it's wrong to take Paladin on an offensive route when it comes to adjusting their ability in speedruns. Rather make them more supportive in helping the party take down the enemy with the following abilities.

With the following abilities I would add the following:
Phalanx: 2% DMG mitigation (stacks up to 3 times) Duration 30 seconds
War Drum: AOE ATT up Duration 30 seconds
Flash: chance at Defense down, AOE Duration 20 second (or however long the MRD's Att down one last)

I think simply adding this kind of support to PLD would encourage parties to use them and at the same time prevent them from just making them a warrior with a sword if one were to just give them an AOE WS. The weird thing is when it comes to the GLA Flash and the MRD Provoke, the Provoke is a lot better since it's "enhance" effect grants an att down reducing dmg while sure flash can blind target, it's not a definitive boost like att down is. When you have attack down it's active 100% of the time til it wears off, with blind it may help you 5-75% of the duration. If they add a Defense down to Flash then it's effect would be useful for 100% of the duration since not only is it useful to everyone but it doesn't have a chance of helping you, once it's there it's there. It would also serve as a good parallel to MRD's Provoke, while they can inflict ATT down to a single target, a GLA can inflict an AOE DEF down.

Then you have War drum, an AOE that deals dmg with large enmity gains. It's called War Drum yet the name makes no sense for what it does lol. War Drum sounds like it should also include an AOE ATT boost to those in range lol.

Then of course Phalanx which is reduced to a single target attack that can only be used after blocking an attack. Doesn't really make much sense, with Phalanx it sounds like it should grant some sort of defensive boost so for 250 TP to add 2% DMG mitigation with needing 750 to reach 6% and then spending 250 for upkeep doesn't sound to bad imo. I mean to balance it out it could be that the Phalanx has to hit the target in order to gain the enhancement. So if you miss then you have to try and hit the target again before the duration wears off or else you gotta start all over again. It's kinda like the Dancer's steps which are used to enfeeble a foe but rather then enfeebling a foe this ability would be used to enhance your defensive abilities.

[Judge_Xero]

As someone who also likes to play PLD. I really hope there are some changes to it.
Although I like War as well, cause it's the easy-mode Tank, PLD should be a lot better.

I like the idea of VIT + MND being the attack stats for PLD, but can see why that would be unfair.
War has STR and VIT as well. Which doesn't leave a reason to add MND. So it looses a bit on MDEF.
So to give PLD to ability to stack VIT + MND giving it superior strength and defense (leaving room to add attack to boost it even more) May not be good in the long run. (could we get a VIT + MND materia please!!!)

^^Edited: Not sure what I was thinking. Of course MND doesn't effect MDEF

Yes please - Mnd and Vit for PLD main stats.

AOE debuff skills would be excellent. - Def Down, Evasion Down.
Make War Drum stronger, with a lower cooldown, and make it stack well with Bloodbath.
Emnity Generation right now seems pretty good IMO. If they could balance what PLD can do on single target and give them more AOE skills, it would be a beast.

Make this combo work SE.
Divine Veil
Sacred Prism + Holy Succor. For an AOE Holy Succor, which would then heal the PLD for # of targets.
Activating Divine Veil, giving all members in range Divine Regen.
(I know it wouldn't actually work this way, but it should)

Why does Holy Succor not stack with Sacred Prism?!!?

Great suggestions everyone.

[SwordCoheir]

We've shown in real tests that WAR takes 3-5x the damage PLD takes over time, it just does has higher DPS so people assume a faster fight = a more successful/safer fight - Which is not always true.

Actually that is true, in a standalone solo setting the numbers turn out in favor of PLD on the account they can sustain the damage and are given a length of time to actually do damage in return. In a party setting however if a mob dies overall faster with one person taking the brunt of the damage the damage built up from the fight wouldn't amount to as much.

Taking Ifrit as an example, most decent speed runs can kill him with roughly 7-8 Minutes with a WAR tank, and 10-12 with a PLD tank. A WAR might take 650-700 damage average from an auto attack, and PLD might take 600-650. That 50-100 damage might build up on WAR over time, but if your taking two or three more minutes on a fight with PLD, your taking 600-650 more damage every attack in the span of that extra time which would likely nullify or fall behind any extra damage WAR might have taken.

Bare in Mind WAR can actually counter Ifrit's Regen whereas PLD cannot, so when your DD's are running from Eruption he's gaining health back making the fight take longer.

I like the idea of VIT + MND being the attack stats for PLD, but can see why that would be unfair.
War has STR and VIT as well. Which doesn't leave a reason to add MND. So it looses a bit on MDEF.
So to give PLD to ability to stack VIT + MND giving it superior strength and defense (leaving room to add attack to boost it even more) May not be good in the long run. (could we get a VIT + MND materia please!!!)

Actually MND has no effect on magic defense in this game, it all comes down to VIT in configuring all damage calculations.

Why does Holy Succor not stack with Sacred Prism?!!?

When they brought the jobs in they specifically reworded Sacred Prism from Healing Spells to Cure, Cura, Esuna, and Regen. I was pretty pissed about this too because it would have given PLD a bit more utility, a bigger hate tool, and maybe allow them to become a supplemented healer (provided their MP could hold out). Maybe it was some in game mechanic they couldn't fix when it came to the healing bonus when curing others effect, I dunno.

[Zantetsuken]

Actually that is true, in a standalone solo setting the numbers turn out in favor of PLD on the account they can sustain the damage and are given a length of time to actually do damage in return. In a party setting however if a mob dies overall faster with one person taking the brunt of the damage the damage built up from the fight wouldn't amount to as much. .

Except you aren't taking into account that the PLD can work with one WHM and a BRD, where a WAR typically needs 2x WHM.

PLD+BRD+WHM is putting out decent DPS, as to whether or not it beats out the WAR+ WHM+WHM is up to the players and situation, but I think it likely does.

I'd actually like to do some Ifrit testing with this approach (same PTs, all members in AF, etc).. My guess is that all other things being equal, the PLD will have the edge.

One last thing: Speed runs usually means DD are running hot on enmity (which PLD controls better than WAR now).. So you run the risk of higher deaths which in turn results in slower runs at best and losses at worst. Its another thing to factor in.

Test first, QQ later.

[Eagleheart]

Except you aren't taking into account that the PLD can work with one WHM and a BRD, where a WAR typically needs 2x WHM.

PLD+BRD+WHM is putting out decent DPS, as to whether or not it beats out the WAR+ WHM+WHM is up to the players and situation, but I think it likely does.

I'd actually like to do some Ifrit testing with this approach (same PTs, all members in AF, etc).. My guess is that all other things being equal, the PLD will have the edge.

One last thing: Speed runs usually means DD are running hot on enmity (which PLD controls better than WAR now).. So you run the risk of higher deaths which in turn results in slower runs at best and losses at worst. Its another thing to factor in.

Test first, QQ later.

Please refrain from baiting other posters. I would like to keep the thread as polite as possible.

With that said, I will look you up tonight for an Ifrit run. I am curious as to why you want everyone to wear full AF, though. What does it matter what the DD's gear is, so long as it is the same for both Paladin and Warrior's attempts?

Also, I still have not seen an answer regarding WHM quantity between the two tanks.