Third party software

[HyoMinPark]

Well you're assuming that, FFXIV's Raiding scene, is so unique, that any previous experience in any other MMO's should be ignored, because, of that high horse you seem to be riding.

But you're right, man, I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about, from any other source.

There is no high horse here; that is all something you are, once again, assuming with no proof. If you want proof that the raiders aren’t the ones who ask to be able to put in the minimum amount of effort when it comes to clearing content, I suggest you look at any thread on this form demanding nerfs to battle content and then tell me which group of players is advocating for it.

[HolyReign]

There is no high horse here; that is all something you are, once again, assuming with no proof. If you want proof that the raiders aren’t the ones who ask to be able to put in the minimum amount of effort when it comes to clearing content, I suggest you look at any thread on this form demanding nerfs to battle content and then tell me which group of players is advocating for it.

How does advocating nerfs to Battle Content, the same as people advocating the use of Addons?

One are people who, want easier content because they mostly don't have the time to dedicate to turning their game time into a second job.

The other, are people who boast about clearing certain content, all the while making use of addons to clear that content, and want us to believe them using them is purely because of the, "QoL", changes they add.

[KariTheFox]

How does advocating nerfs to Battle Content, the same as people advocating the use of Addons?

One are people who, want easier content because they mostly don't have the time to dedicate to turning their game time into a second job.

The other, are people who boast about clearing certain content, all the while making use of addons to clear that content, and want us to believe them using them is purely because of the, "QoL", changes they add.

I mean, there's a scale isn't there. Plenty of people just use ACT, all that does is read combat logs and turn it into a human readable format. Or plugins that help compensate for packet loss, which just simulates "living in California or Japan" for most players.

I don't agree with the kinds of mods that give new visual indicators for mechanics (I actually find them distracting and annoying, and they make it more difficult for me to learn content) but I don't think people who use them are really a big deal. They still have to execute the mechanics and play thier jobs, after all.

[HyoMinPark]

How does advocating nerfs to Battle Content, the same as people advocating the use of Addons?

One are people who, want easier content because they mostly don't have the time to dedicate to turning their game time into a second job.

The other, are people who boast about clearing certain content, all the while making use of addons to clear that content, and want us to believe them using them is purely because of the, "QoL", changes they add.

Your original argument was that raiders use add-ons because they want to put the minimal amount of effort into clearing. It is the same argument for those who advocate for battle nerfs. Especially the ones that aren’t even necessary because the content is extremely easy (e.g., Will of the Moon solo instance was a big one that people wanted nerfed). There’s no real difference there—and you can’t really say that raiders only put the minimal effort into the content they pursue. To be frank, if they were going to do that, they’d probably just buy a clear versus doing anything else.

There are plenty of QoL add-ons that really should be in the game already; and add-ons that literally hurt no one. There are also those that really push the boundaries and do cross over into cheating, such as the one the Chinese playerbase made for TEA that made Limit Cut telegraphs visible when they aren’t supposed to be. Mind you, that was also controversial amongst raiders, and a lot of them did not condone the plug-in. The most common battle content add-on is ACT; and all it does is translate the battle log into a condensed number so that you don’t have to calculate damage by hand. Other things that piggy back off of it simply expand upon its base function, but the main purpose of that program is to be a damage meter.

I’d argue that groups that utilize ACT, FFLogs, and XIVAnalysis to troubleshoot issues with mechanics, damage, healing/mitigation, and rotations are putting in far more than just “minimal effort”. I’ve spent a lot of time raiding in this game going over logs with my static so that we can figure out why we’re dying to this or stuck on that, etc.. Again, that seems like more than minimal effort to me.

It isn’t all or none; and just because a raider might use something like NoClippy or one of the combo consolidation plug-ins to remove needless bloat like Draw/Play or Minor Arcana/Crown Play doesn’t mean they don’t put effort into their class or the content they clear; or that they are only doing the bare minimum. Your posts are needlessly generalizing, and they help no one. Least off all the points you are wanting to make.

[dan_alexandre]

How does advocating nerfs to Battle Content, the same as people advocating the use of Addons?

One are people who, want easier content because they mostly don't have the time to dedicate to turning their game time into a second job.

The other, are people who boast about clearing certain content, all the while making use of addons to clear that content, and want us to believe them using them is purely because of the, "QoL", changes they add.

People want to have fun, I am sure there's some that also want to make it easier as well... however.. in this particular game.. out of all the raiders I know.. only a few even consider using something akin to DBM, everyone knows that exists.. very few use it when they know it's an option. I know that perhaps the people I know is not a big enough sample of the community but it looks like a trend to me, hence disagreeing with you about minimal effort. People are just not as tuned to that kind of stuff perhaps as in WoW? I do not mean to talk down to you when I say this but I really think you're assuming too much on this regard.

If it really was minimal effort situation, it would be absolutely rampant in the raiding community when I honestly feel its the minority. I cannot prove this however as I really don't have any proper statistics but its the feeling I have from playing the game and interacting with people in it.

[Inanegrain]

How does advocating nerfs to Battle Content, the same as people advocating the use of Addons?

One are people who, want easier content because they mostly don't have the time to dedicate to turning their game time into a second job.

The other, are people who boast about clearing certain content, all the while making use of addons to clear that content, and want us to believe them using them is purely because of the, "QoL", changes they add.

Your last sentence.

Well you're assuming that, FFXIV's Raiding scene, is so unique, that any previous experience in any other MMO's should be ignored, because, of that high horse you seem to be riding.

But you're right, man, I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about, from any other source.

If there are people who are asking nerfs or complain savage is too difficult even with addons, they aren't going to enjoy it either way and shouldn't do it.
If they're so insistent on it, they can go ahead and find ways to make it doable, either getting better at the game or "QoL" that's going to make you clear mechanics. Emphasis on clearing mechanics, it's the wall people would have if they find it too hard.

Want to know what's the hilarious thing that got nerfed? Thunder God Cid.

[Packetdancer]

The other, are people who boast about clearing certain content, all the while making use of addons to clear that content, and want us to believe them using them is purely because of the, "QoL", changes they add.

I mean, a great many add-ons are just QoL, from what I've seen.

There's apparently one that lets you keep more than five sets of raid marker presets. This doesn't make it possible to move markers mid-combat (which is no longer possible on the server side regardless), but it does mean you don't have to do the thing some statics do and divvy up who has which markers. (Or deal with the related problem of "Well, the NIN is gone this week; let's go do Endsinger EX instead to get some alt-job Bluefeather weapo- wait, crap, the NIN is the one with the EX3 markers." Not that the EX3 markers PF uses are exactly anything difficult to set up in the right spots, admittedly, but I trust you take the meaning.)

Does it make it easier to clear content? Not really. Does it save time, so you're not spending 5 minutes before the first pull manually setting up the markers that everyone is used to? I'd certainly imagine so.

There's evidently a mod that lets you bind macros to hotkey combinations that aren't used by the game -- or, I guess, that pulls up a radial menu centered on the mouse cursor? -- and some people I have raided with use that for mechanics macros ("Water's safe!" or "T/H Tethers!" or whatnot). Does it give you functionality the game doesn't have? Not really; you can make those macros and bind them on a normal hotbar -- I actually do have mechanics callouts as macros ("/p T/H tethers", "/p DPS Role Call", etc.) for PF, where I can't raid-call over Discord, and have them on a floating "utilities" hotbar where can I click the icon to do a callout.

But does the ability to bind them to hotkeys that FFXIV doesn't use mean you can free up hotbar bindings you'd be using for those? Sure, absolutely. Being able to hit a hotkey for a specific macro would likely be faster than my mousing over the hotbar and clicking the right callout.

This isn't to say there aren't plenty of add-ons out there that do reduce the difficulty of content; I'm absolutely certain there are. Probably a lot more than a few.

But it is to say that not every "QoL" add-on changes the content difficulty; many I've heard of or seen a friend use genuinely are just QoL ones that reduce some aspect of pre-pull annoyance (marker setup for PF), or being able to bind an in-game macro to a hotkey (without sacrificing actual combat hotbar space) you can just tap rather than needing to click the macro icon mid-combat to make a party-chat callout, or whatnot.

Making blanket statements doesn't work for either side of the argument. Pretending that all mods/add-ons are only QoL changes to reduce annoyance is inaccurate -- there's definitely some really questionable stuff floating around out there -- but so is acting like all mods/add-ons change the difficulty in a meaningful way and that none are merely QoL tweaks to the UX. The reality is more nuanced, at least insofar as I've observed it.