Third party software

[HolyReign]

You really shouldn’t assume that you know what you’re talking about when it comes to content you don’t even do. You know what they say about those who assume…

Well you're assuming that, FFXIV's Raiding scene, is so unique, that any previous experience in any other MMO's should be ignored, because, of that high horse you seem to be riding.

But you're right, man, I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about, from any other source.

[dan_alexandre]

Well you're assuming that, FFXIV's Raiding scene, is so unique, that any previous experience in any other MMO's should be ignored, because, of that high horse you seem to be riding.

But you're right, man, I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about, from any other source.

It is a different game designed by the devs to be cleared without addons, they test internally and they only release content that they have proven internally that can be cleared.

I get that some experience can translate to other MMOs but you may be missing nuances here

Edit:
To your earlier point, I don't think you're necessarily wrong regarding some people looking for the easier path, assuming I understood correctly what you were saying but I don't think that's the majority, think most people just look for nice things to have most of the time.. be it looks or something easier to see, smaller convenience stuff.

Edit 2:
If you look at it, part of the fun in this game for many is figuring stuff out, I'm not entirely sure that is the case with WoW with exception to World first raiders perhaps? I may be completely wrong in this but I am assuming that even new players that want to join now, first thing they're told from their friends is to download some UI, DBM and some weak auras. That is a completely different experience, they get to the boss and have stuff telling them things to do from the start and the fun is probably reacting to it instead of figuring it out.

If I am wrong in this, fairplay, I'm not a WoW raider. However the feeling i get from the raiders i know in this game is different, it not about getting stuff told to you automatically in real time for most I know, they just want to see stuff better for most part so they keep track of things. (Buffs/debuffs etc)

[HolyReign]

It is a different game designed by the devs to be cleared without addons, they test internally and they only release content that they have proven internally that can be cleared.

I get that some experience can translate to other MMOs but you're missing nuances here

Could you point out any, "Nuances." that I am missing?

Because from my experience, the Raids are very alike.

1. Know your rotation, synergize your burst windows with raid buff windows.
2. Understand how to identify mechanics, how to avoid them, and what your role is in them.
3. Don't be dumb, and stand in crap, infront of crap, or where crap is being thrown, this will help your support not needing to heal you because you've avoided unnecessary damage.
4. Follow your Raid leaders orders.

Ect.

Content isn't as complex as people make it out to be, that warrant the need to use any addons/mods or 3rd party programs. Game has it's problems, but, creating problems that aren't as bad as people make them out to be, to justify the use of things, that are very clearly stated to be against ToS.

[dan_alexandre]

Could you point out any, "Nuances." that I am missing?

Because from my experience, the Raids are very alike.

1. Know your rotation, synergize your burst windows with raid buff windows.
2. Understand how to identify mechanics, how to avoid them, and what your role is in them.
3. Don't be dumb, and stand in crap, infront of crap, or where crap is being thrown, this will help your support not needing to heal you because you've avoided unnecessary damage.
4. Follow your Raid leaders orders.

Ect.

Content isn't as complex as people make it out to be, that warrant the need to use any addons/mods or 3rd party programs. Game has it's problems, but, creating problems that aren't as bad as people make them out to be, to justify the use of things, that are very clearly stated to be against ToS.

Nothing i disagree with there, please see the edits in the previous reply. I think the reply you got initially in previous pages was me missunderstanding your point about the need of addons, I think you were agreeing that there's no need after more careful read but i disagree in part regarding minimal effort and that's a culture thing, a nuance you may be missing. I added more to the reply in the 2 edits.

To my point: basically, I don't agree with the use of addons. I don't think they are needed or should be needed, i also don't think its a minimal effort issue in this game and people have a different approach than what you may think. I do think there are some nice haves from addons that may be missing from the base game, doesn't mean we should use addons but I can't help but think that some of that stuff would be nice to have. Glad they're going to do some effort to improve the UI.

[KariTheFox]

I'm curious about how a Gunbreaker is supposed to figure out which skillspeed tier is best for thier ping - since picking that is very ping dependant - without using a parsing tool.

And don't say "Stone, Sea and Sky", SS&S only lasts three minutes, which means it cuts off right at the start of GNB's biggest burst phase.

[HyoMinPark]

Well you're assuming that, FFXIV's Raiding scene, is so unique, that any previous experience in any other MMO's should be ignored, because, of that high horse you seem to be riding.

But you're right, man, I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about, from any other source.

There is no high horse here; that is all something you are, once again, assuming with no proof. If you want proof that the raiders aren’t the ones who ask to be able to put in the minimum amount of effort when it comes to clearing content, I suggest you look at any thread on this form demanding nerfs to battle content and then tell me which group of players is advocating for it.

[HolyReign]

There is no high horse here; that is all something you are, once again, assuming with no proof. If you want proof that the raiders aren’t the ones who ask to be able to put in the minimum amount of effort when it comes to clearing content, I suggest you look at any thread on this form demanding nerfs to battle content and then tell me which group of players is advocating for it.

How does advocating nerfs to Battle Content, the same as people advocating the use of Addons?

One are people who, want easier content because they mostly don't have the time to dedicate to turning their game time into a second job.

The other, are people who boast about clearing certain content, all the while making use of addons to clear that content, and want us to believe them using them is purely because of the, "QoL", changes they add.

[KariTheFox]

How does advocating nerfs to Battle Content, the same as people advocating the use of Addons?

One are people who, want easier content because they mostly don't have the time to dedicate to turning their game time into a second job.

The other, are people who boast about clearing certain content, all the while making use of addons to clear that content, and want us to believe them using them is purely because of the, "QoL", changes they add.

I mean, there's a scale isn't there. Plenty of people just use ACT, all that does is read combat logs and turn it into a human readable format. Or plugins that help compensate for packet loss, which just simulates "living in California or Japan" for most players.

I don't agree with the kinds of mods that give new visual indicators for mechanics (I actually find them distracting and annoying, and they make it more difficult for me to learn content) but I don't think people who use them are really a big deal. They still have to execute the mechanics and play thier jobs, after all.

[HyoMinPark]

How does advocating nerfs to Battle Content, the same as people advocating the use of Addons?

One are people who, want easier content because they mostly don't have the time to dedicate to turning their game time into a second job.

The other, are people who boast about clearing certain content, all the while making use of addons to clear that content, and want us to believe them using them is purely because of the, "QoL", changes they add.

Your original argument was that raiders use add-ons because they want to put the minimal amount of effort into clearing. It is the same argument for those who advocate for battle nerfs. Especially the ones that aren’t even necessary because the content is extremely easy (e.g., Will of the Moon solo instance was a big one that people wanted nerfed). There’s no real difference there—and you can’t really say that raiders only put the minimal effort into the content they pursue. To be frank, if they were going to do that, they’d probably just buy a clear versus doing anything else.

There are plenty of QoL add-ons that really should be in the game already; and add-ons that literally hurt no one. There are also those that really push the boundaries and do cross over into cheating, such as the one the Chinese playerbase made for TEA that made Limit Cut telegraphs visible when they aren’t supposed to be. Mind you, that was also controversial amongst raiders, and a lot of them did not condone the plug-in. The most common battle content add-on is ACT; and all it does is translate the battle log into a condensed number so that you don’t have to calculate damage by hand. Other things that piggy back off of it simply expand upon its base function, but the main purpose of that program is to be a damage meter.

I’d argue that groups that utilize ACT, FFLogs, and XIVAnalysis to troubleshoot issues with mechanics, damage, healing/mitigation, and rotations are putting in far more than just “minimal effort”. I’ve spent a lot of time raiding in this game going over logs with my static so that we can figure out why we’re dying to this or stuck on that, etc.. Again, that seems like more than minimal effort to me.

It isn’t all or none; and just because a raider might use something like NoClippy or one of the combo consolidation plug-ins to remove needless bloat like Draw/Play or Minor Arcana/Crown Play doesn’t mean they don’t put effort into their class or the content they clear; or that they are only doing the bare minimum. Your posts are needlessly generalizing, and they help no one. Least off all the points you are wanting to make.

[dan_alexandre]

How does advocating nerfs to Battle Content, the same as people advocating the use of Addons?

One are people who, want easier content because they mostly don't have the time to dedicate to turning their game time into a second job.

The other, are people who boast about clearing certain content, all the while making use of addons to clear that content, and want us to believe them using them is purely because of the, "QoL", changes they add.

People want to have fun, I am sure there's some that also want to make it easier as well... however.. in this particular game.. out of all the raiders I know.. only a few even consider using something akin to DBM, everyone knows that exists.. very few use it when they know it's an option. I know that perhaps the people I know is not a big enough sample of the community but it looks like a trend to me, hence disagreeing with you about minimal effort. People are just not as tuned to that kind of stuff perhaps as in WoW? I do not mean to talk down to you when I say this but I really think you're assuming too much on this regard.

If it really was minimal effort situation, it would be absolutely rampant in the raiding community when I honestly feel its the minority. I cannot prove this however as I really don't have any proper statistics but its the feeling I have from playing the game and interacting with people in it.