Third party software

[dan_alexandre]

Seen so much on this already, it's in every feed and since this is the correct place for feedback to SE:

- Realistically we do not need mods to play the game, game is great as is however the HUD lacks customization.

- ToS and enforcement has issues, I understand not wanting to create list of what's allowed but it's so unclear at the moment what's ok and what isn't I think something like the below could be realistically done(Just an example):

- We do not allow any third party software however we have the following exceptions:
---- We allow voice communication software that does not add any other extra functionality to the game / nor has overlay/feature that provides more detail than the base UI.
---- We allow visual enhancements that do not add more information than the base UI.

It's easier to deny everything and create exceptions than to list everything that's allowed or not, the above could be realistically altered/updated/maintained over the years.

Love the devs but honestly feel that the inconsistency of how things have been approached helped creating this situation.

The above is meant only as something constructive, I really do hope this situation gets addressed in such a way that both players and devs are mostly happy with the outcome.

The above is also not meant to be an exhaustive exploration of all issues but just a suggestion on how the ToS could be approached/updated, I'm sure it could be more in depth and better written as well but the core idea is: Deny all, allow some exceptions with proper wording to cover potential abuse.

All the best,
Dan

[Saranade]

Here is an easy pill to swallow - "Indeed, we’ve only released duties that we have proven can be beaten with the game’s standard features." - Yoshi P.

[dan_alexandre]

It really is, however why not try to improve things further? Them recently separating the conditional enhancements was a really good thing, should they just stop developing the game because: ""Indeed, we’ve only released duties that we have proven can be beaten with the game’s standard features." - Yoshi P. ?

It's not like I want mods in the game, I want the game to be better without them and enforcement/rules to be clear.

[Seraphor]

It really is, however why not try to improve things further? Them recently separating the conditional enhancements was a really good thing, should they just stop developing the game because: ""Indeed, we’ve only released duties that we have proven can be beaten with the game’s standard features." - Yoshi P. ?

It's not like I want mods in the game, I want the game to be better without them and enforcement/rules to be clear.

The rules are clear and always have been.

"Don't get caught."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4OPGYN6NGw

[Saranade]

It really is, however why not try to improve things further? Them recently separating the conditional enhancements was a really good thing, should they just stop developing the game because: ""Indeed, we’ve only released duties that we have proven can be beaten with the game’s standard features." - Yoshi P. ?

It's not like I want mods in the game, I want the game to be better without them and enforcement/rules to be clear.

Okay, here is another easy pill to swallow: "We believe that people use the aforementioned tools to expand the HUD and display more information because they feel that existing functions are insufficient for tackling high-end duties. In recognition of this, we intend to review the most prominent tools, and in order to discourage their use, endeavor to enhance the functionality of the HUD. Though it will take some time, we're determined to make it happen─not least for the benefit of those who play on consoles." - Yoshi P.

[dan_alexandre]

Agreed in the sense that both ToS and Yoshida always were "no third party", but as Yoshida said it's a line that is hard to draw. My suggestion above about the ToS would make it easier for devs, it would also shut up anyone going about how things are not clear enough and is a realistic approach.

The fact that Yoshida is actually commenting that they'll improve the UI is great, were you somehow in the impression I was against it or that I want mods to replace the UI? I think you're either not reading or you are interpreting what I am writing in such a messed up way, it's the lack of development in the UI that partially caused this situation.

I'm not saying that just because the game doesn't have something people should mod it, especially if against the ToS. I'm suggesting how this can be approached from the dev side to end this mess, which I would imagine you'd want to?

[Packetdancer]

Seen so much on this already, it's in every feed and since this is the correct place for feedback to SE:

While it kind-of is, the community team have mentioned before that they tend to pay attention to single, large threads on a topic; those get noted by the forum software and are more likely to get mod attention (and to potentially be forwarded to the devs).

That doesn't mean you can't make a thread on it, obviously; it's just a note to be aware that when we've got 10 different threads on it, it's a lot less likely to get noted and actually reach the devs than if we just have one big one.

ToS and enforcement has issues, I understand not wanting to create list of what's allowed but it's so unclear at the moment what's ok and what isn't I think something like the below could be realistically done(Just an example):

As much as I'd like some clarity on this as a player -- specifically, as a shader author who likes doing things like using shaders to turn the game into an oil painting or a pencil sketch, to get creative shots in GPose -- I have to admit that were I in their shoes I would be exceedingly hesitant to start naming explicit exceptions. People are creative, and will use any wiggle room in a ToS to try to find loopholes.

Say that in-game overlays which provide additional UI are allowed when they facilitate voice communication? Someone will find a way to make a modified version of Discord that links up with Cactbot or something similar, and then claim that since it facilitates voice communication it's not a violation of ToS. (No, really. Someone will.)

Or they'll try to argue that since the game has has visual tells for mechanics -- e.g. things you see on-screen -- having a plaintext readout of a mechanic is not adding "information not available in the base game".

Being specific in the ToS is a recipe for having to constantly rewrite and revise your ToS to account for new and creative ways people have found to obey a strict (and opportunistic) reading of the letter of the law while violating the spirit of it. Being overly broad is frustrating to players because it leaves people wondering what exactly will or won't be enforced, but it also gives the company a lot more flexibility in what they enforce it against; they can (theoretically) look at each situation and decide if it merits it.

That said, they had previously said (some years back) in a thread on this forum that they'd turn a blind eye to aesthetic-only modifications (like ReShade/GShade), and had mentioned that usability mods that improved UI were a very low priority for any sort of ToS enforcement... but now they do seem to be making the latter a ToS enforcement priority. So I do agree that it'd be nice to have some clarification (though it's probably safe to assume that clarification would be "just don't do it where anyone can see, or if it'll make a problem for people gameplay-wise").

I just don't think we're likely to get it... and were I in their shoes, I'd be really reluctant to give it.

[dan_alexandre]

I see what you're saying Packetdancer, I agree that it is really hard on them to define, the example I was giving has the the exceptions being purposefully vague while providing some guidance. People will just abuse it regardless, your example of automated callouts through voice is a perfect one.. I imagine people may already have done something similar.

There's never going to be a perfect solution, perhaps my solution is not the best one but is with the intent of mitigating the issue, not completely resolve it as it is impossible to do so.

Reviewing the threads, I have to agree, I should've not created another and I appreciate you bringing it up. Will keep it in mind for the future, thanks for the insight

[DiaDeem]

why not try to improve things further?

Yoshi literally just said this...


Also, here's the PS3 HUD. In case you believe they've never improved the Vanilla UI before:

[dan_alexandre]

Seen it DiaDeem, another person already had referenced it and I even gave example of another improvement they've made with the conditional enhancements in one of the replies. You may have missed a few replies or points made in this thread. That said, I'm glad and hopeful that they make good changes in UI department