Third party tools are a game design failing in a multi-platform game

[Johners]

You mean, banning people for using features that they will implement later?

Except we don't know the exact UI changes they're going to make, we just know they're willing to review these plugins and make some changes. They could well implement none of the functions that they've opted to ban people for and even if they did then implement said functionality, it doesn't make it acceptable to break the terms of service now.

[SwingLifeAway]

even if they did then implement said functionality, it doesn't make it acceptable to break the terms of service now.

So just let me clarify your stance here, from a moral standpoint, you believe that they should ban someone for using something that doesn't affect anyone else at all one way or the other, but if they implement the same feature into the game, it's not hypocritical or even slightly messed up? Perhaps the TOS is flawed by having literally the most vague description of third party addons possible. It is very simple to narrow down what can and can't be used without referring to specific addons, and yet it remains entirely vague.

There are several potential resolutions to this issue, I don't see why you are insisting on one that will kill the experience for an entire demographic of the community, that you're not even a part of?

[Johners]

So just let me clarify your stance here, from a moral standpoint, you believe that they should ban someone for using something that doesn't affect anyone else at all one way or the other, but if they implement the same feature into the game, it's not hypocritical or even slightly messed up? Perhaps the TOS is flawed by having literally the most vague description of third party addons possible. It is very simple to narrow down what can and can't be used without referring to specific addons, and yet it remains entirely vague.

There are several potential resolutions to this issue, I don't see why you are insisting on one that will kill the experience for an entire demographic of the community, that you're not even a part of?

The terms of service is intentionally vague for a reason, they all are, because it gives them the freedom to do what they want. More importantly, if they explicitly list the tools you can or can't use, what happens when a tool outside of either list appears? It's actually better to have this vague terms of service than an explicit list when the quantity and quality of plugins is ever evolving. It's written in legalise and it's fundamentally Square Enix giving themselves the legal cover for any bans they may or may not give to players. If they had an explicit list of the 10 plugins you can use and the 10 you can't, numbers are arbitrary for an example, plugin 21 doesn't fit into either category when it comes along and would cause them more problems to deal with that the current vague ToS.

The solution to the issue is to actually engage with the player base to provide a better quality of life in the game's UI but the solution also means players have to accept a unified toolset and play with it. Having a flat no third-party tools rule is the easiest thing to do going forward though when you consider all the platforms the game is on and this is something Square Enix need to start being upfront about, even if some players just won't play after it.

[VelKallor]

Good thing that's getting a top to bottom rework in the next expansion eh?

They said that two expansions back. Never happened. Their Ui is one thing..dont even get me STARTED on their pitiful lack of privacy controls, which is part of that UI and BADLY in need of some serious updates to reflect MODERN gaming practices.

One example? In FF 14 a person needs your PERMISSION to add you as a friend, and CANNOT mail you unless you do. In WOW you can be added as a friend, stalked, mailed incessantly and their ignore system is NOT account wide....which it should have been two expansions back and they never got it done...despite the fact they said they would.

Update their UI and systems?? LMAO, you MUST be joking, they cant even manage to get their calendar to reflect LOCAL timezones.

The WOW OCE calendar indicates the time of ingame events in CALIFORNIAN TIME and every request and email and advisory to get it fixed so it shows correct details has been IGNORED.

Whats the time difference?

17 hours.

We had been at them since 2016 to fix it. Result? Silence.

They will fix the UI? Oh you mean they will finally be attending to problems they have been aware of for six years and have done NOTHING about?

Righttttttttttttt............

[DezereDawn]

Good thing that's getting a top to bottom rework in the next expansion eh?

They said that two expansions back. Never happened. Their Ui is one thing..dont even get me STARTED on their pitiful lack of privacy controls, which is part of that UI and BADLY in need of some serious updates to reflect MODERN gaming practices.

One example? In FF 14 a person needs your PERMISSION to add you as a friend, and CANNOT mail you unless you do. In WOW you can be added as a friend, stalked, mailed incessantly and their ignore system is NOT account wide....which it should have been two expansions back and they never got it done...despite the fact they said they would.

Forgive me, but I will believe it when I see it.

Update their UI and systems?? LMAO, you MUST be joking, they cant even manage to get their calendar to reflect LOCAL timezones. The WOW OCE calendar indicates the time of events in CALIFORNIAN TIME and every request and email and advisory to get it fixed so it shows correct details.

Whats the time difference?

uhhh, they've shown their new ui, it's happening,

also FF14 has a much larger stalking problem than wow does, do not even THINK about claiming otherwise, this is the game that once you're added, you cannot be removed, blocking someone doesn't stop them from seeing where you are, and stalker exes have harassed one of my friends via the marriage ring which you cannot forcibly take away from them
don't throw stones in glass houses, it's actually embarassing.

Honestly you seem more like you wanna throw a hate boner at wow than actually listening to genuine feedback, get off your high horse and have a discussion or get out of the thread.

[SwingLifeAway]

It's actually better to have this vague terms of service than an explicit list when the quantity and quality of plugins is ever evolving. It's written in legalise and it's fundamentally Square Enix giving themselves the legal cover for any bans they may or may not give to players. If they had an explicit list of the 10 plugins you can use and the 10 you can't, numbers are arbitrary for an example, plugin 21 doesn't fit into either category when it comes along and would cause them more problems to deal with that the current vague ToS.

Pretty sure I said in my post above that it's possible to narrow them down, for example by category, whilst still remaining vague and not mentioning specific tools.

Having a flat no third-party tools rule is the easiest thing to do going forward though when you consider all the platforms the game is on

No? Because now they have to moderate arbitrary reports from people who get a little giggle from reporting streamers and others for using tools, which takes up time, that could be better used to punish Eureka Bots, RMT bots, etc, things that actually affect both PC and console players in a very serious way. But I guess that's not as important for some reason?

this is something Square Enix need to start being upfront about, even if some players just won't play after it.

So basically, even though these people have done nothing to you, they should just have their game experienced ruined and quit because you think it's a good idea? Yet people will say that those who use addons exclusively ruin the game for other people.

[Alaray]

I can't think of a Plug-In someone was using that interfered with my own, personal, game experience. I can, however; think of plug-ins that make some encounters possible to do - for the sake of my color blindness - without needing someone to verbally guide my movement.

Which, my point is: who cares if people use plug-ins to make their UI look more readable to them? Why does it matter if someone who has the world's worst ping is using a plug-in to play their character as if it was on 40 ping? Who does it affect for someone to be using Cactbot callouts to help them through a fight? What does it matter if someone has the timeline on their game screen, vs. a second monitor? Why does anyone actually care that some nobody is parsing their dungeon run, when literally no one but that one weirdo actually cares about dungeon performance? Why should we ban a slew of plug-in usage that can actually help people with disabilities play more smoothly? Why should they have to wait for SE to care, when it's pretty clear SE would rather not care for as long as possible? What about people with much more niche disabilities that a company isn't going to provide accessibility options for? Why shouldn't they be allowed to utilize plug-ins that help them gain the same experience from the game as... me?

There's already separate outlines for actual cheating, character automation et al. I'm sorry to say, but I don't see the value in banning everything from the community when there's so many things that genuinely are helpful to people and give them better experiences. If anything, it just hurts the community overall and enables brigading over incredibly stupid, innocuous things.

The predominant pitfall of addons in WoW had to do with raids and PvE experiences being designed around them, which in turn made them feel required to participate in the content past a certain point. SE can just... y'know... not... do that? And continue designing fights as if Cactbot doesn't exist? I don't think that's... a stretch?

[Johners]

uhhh, they've shown their new ui, it's happening,

also FF14 has a much larger stalking problem than wow does, do not even THINK about claiming otherwise, this is the game that once you're added, you cannot be removed, blocking someone doesn't stop them from seeing where you are, and stalker exes have harassed one of my friends via the marriage ring which you cannot forcibly take away from them
don't throw stones in glass houses, it's actually embarassing.

Honestly you seem more like you wanna throw a hate boner at wow than actually listening to genuine feedback, get off your high horse and have a discussion or get out of the thread.

The stalking problem in this game is caused by the lodestone URLs showing your characters unique ID that never changes regardless of name changes, home world changes or even data centre changes. You'd have to make an entirely new character to get a new unique ID and the moment a stalker finds out its you, which they may do, then they'll be able to go again on the stalking.

The previous post was definitely just a hate boner against WoW though and not really relevant to the discussion. Square Enix or Blizzard aren't going to make everything, it's simply not feasible to provide everything but that doesn't mean the game client should be a free-for-all either.

[SwingLifeAway]

Which, my point is: who cares if people use plug-ins to make their UI look more readable to them?

OK but he is on Playstation and can't use them so therefore you can't either. It's unfair! /s

[Johners]

I can't think of a Plug-In someone was using that interfered with my own, personal, game experience. I can, however; think of plug-ins that make some encounters possible to do - for the sake of my color blindness - without needing someone to verbally guide my movement.

Accessibility issues are a problem across the entire game industry but some of the options you see in single player games simply can't be applied in a multiplayer game. There's always going to be less accessibility in online games even if there's more Square Enix could always be doing. People mention P3S a lot and from what I can see, it's probably something they tweak to make more accessible and I'm surprised they've not done so already.

Which, my point is: who cares if people use plug-ins to make their UI look more readable to them? Snip for character limit

The problem lies in the game client being an entire free-for-all in terms of third party functions and there's no parity for all supported platforms. I believe macOS has most of the plugins Windows has but PlayStation users are entirely excluded from this. There's a duty upon Square Enix to ensure all players have access to the same game.

More importantly, the third party tool discussion also applies to actual slam dunk cheating. People using automation bots for gathering, people using cheats in PvP, people using plugins to show AoE markers that you otherwise wouldn't see in high-end duties. There's speed and teleport hacks also. We've seen a big rise in the quality and quantity of all these tools in the last year, if left unmoderated it'll only negatively impacts the game more.

There's already separate outlines for actual cheating, character automation et al. I'm sorry to say, but I don't see the value in banning everything from the community when there's so many things that genuinely are helpful to people and give them better experiences. If anything, it just hurts the community overall and enables brigading over incredibly stupid, innocuous things.

Following on from above, it's also entirely unmoderated across the entire player base from Square Enix and as these tools improve, there's an entire chunk of the player base that'll just be at a bigger and bigger disadvantage from not wanting or being able to use them.