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  1. #51
    Player
    LeonKeyh's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    655
    Character
    Leon Keyh
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaquan View Post
    Why do you only use simple QoL as example of plugins? Seeing other party members cooldowns also falls under the same category and yet posters don't see it as anything other than QoL.
    There exists a "grey area" in most instances where you have people that could argue and disagree about specific cases. Everyone "for" UI updates don't have to agree on them.

    In general, I think that if you "paused" the game and could take as much time as you wanted to view information, making it easier to view that information is not "cheating."

    For example, increasing the size of the cooldown numbers isn't cheating because it's not giving you information that you don't already have. Parsers are not cheating because you can technically just add up all of the numbers you see. Being able to see time left on buffs is not cheating because you can see that information if you were to target the person.

    Seeing other players' cooldowns IS cheating (IMO) though because you can't generally see that. You could argue that you'd be able to scroll up in the battle log, see when the last time it was used was and "count" time from there, and I'm not even sure I have a valid response for that, but I still think it's cheating. Being able to see untelegraphed AEs IS cheating.


    Your wall hack example (that came out of nowhere) is obviously a cheat because it belongs in the "Information you normally wouldn't have" category.
    (1)

  2. #52
    Player
    Jaquan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    235
    Character
    Kirya Nordrain
    World
    Spriggan
    Main Class
    Weaver Lv 77
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaray View Post
    Do you only understand things in binary? I'm not advocating for actual cheats to be used, things that deliberately affect others' experiences, things that deliberately alter the fundamental design philosophy of an encounter, automation of a character etc... I am advocating for plug-ins that are, otherwise, completely harmless and offer things like: being able to see your own CD timers/buff timers/have access to better color filter options/being able to choose whatever track you want to listen to/being able to use ACT etc...

    Or do you see something as innocuous as choosing a song the same as fundamentally breaking a fight's core design philosophy?

    Is nuance truly so dead? Even when it's hardly even that with such a leap?
    ACT in itself isn't seen as QoL but as a tool. Tool that by high end raiders on PC scene is nowadays seen as mandatory as it gives you insight you'd normally not have without extra work. Tool that ends up speeding progression as it allows to pinpoint issues much more reliably than you'd ever could without it. Same tool that basically eliminated console players from World First Race which frankly prompted YoshiP to once again remind us that plug-ins and add-ons are against ToS.

    I won't say I'm against all plug-ins. I'd be a hypocrite if I did. Personally I'd prefer nothing more than just return to the blissful "don't tell, don't show" status quo. Ultimately we're not going to get anything better than that. With plug-ins clocking at close to thousands and the game being cross platform there's no way SE will ever create a curated list of which are good and harmless, and which are basically cheats. Putting aside that it would basically be an official statement that console version is inferior, (yet costs the same and pays same amount for subscription) it would also require to keep all the plug-ins under constant watch as they change. Some of approved could gain undesired functions while some blacklisted might lose ones that made them bad.
    (0)

  3. #53
    Player
    Mosha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    648
    Character
    Mosha Mina
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 96
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaquan View Post
    Same tool that basically eliminated console players from World First Race
    eh, only if it was a full console team, you just need 1 person on PC.
    (0)

  4. #54
    Player
    Jaquan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    235
    Character
    Kirya Nordrain
    World
    Spriggan
    Main Class
    Weaver Lv 77
    Quote Originally Posted by Mosha View Post
    eh, only if it was a full console team, you just need 1 person on PC.
    So basically majority of JP as their PC market isn't doing too hot.
    (1)

  5. #55
    Player
    Mosha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Posts
    648
    Character
    Mosha Mina
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 96
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaquan View Post
    So basically majority of JP as their PC market isn't doing too hot.
    Pretty sure a lot of high-end JP raiders also play on PC.
    just because the market as a whole isn't doing good doesn't mean that there aren't a lot of people on PC in JP, it isn't the most challenging game to run after all.
    (0)

  6. #56
    Player
    Alaray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    624
    Character
    Vevri Arctyria
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaquan View Post
    ACT in itself isn't seen as QoL but as a tool. Tool that by high end raiders on PC scene is nowadays seen as mandatory as it gives you insight you'd normally not have without extra work. Tool that ends up speeding progression as it allows to pinpoint issues much more reliably than you'd ever could without it. Same tool that basically eliminated console players from World First Race which frankly prompted YoshiP to once again remind us that plug-ins and add-ons are against ToS.

    I won't say I'm against all plug-ins. I'd be a hypocrite if I did. Personally I'd prefer nothing more than just return to the blissful "don't tell, don't show" status quo. Ultimately we're not going to get anything better than that. With plug-ins clocking at close to thousands and the game being cross platform there's no way SE will ever create a curated list of which are good and harmless, and which are basically cheats. Putting aside that it would basically be an official statement that console version is inferior, (yet costs the same and pays same amount for subscription) it would also require to keep all the plug-ins under constant watch as they change. Some of approved could gain undesired functions while some blacklisted might lose ones that made them bad.
    Console players can participate in the World Race just fine, but generally people who are that competitive and gung-ho about wanting to be in that incredible minority of people would generally make sure they had whatever they could at their disposal to make success as likely as possible (which also means, better hardware). And if a console player is in the race, there will probably be people in their raid who are using ACT who will inform them of any pertinent pieces of information. Since it's a team. And players talk to each other. Console players aren't anymore eliminated from participating in that race than controller players are, which is to say: they can participate (and, if they're a good enough player a part of a solid enough team, win). There just tends to be a thing when it comes to competitions and competitive people with means, where they will purchase higher quality equipment for the express purpose of tilting odds in their favor further.

    Even so, is the unofficial world race such a sacred thing that it's worth ruining everyone else's experiences because of the perceived possibility that of the 100~ odd people in that race, a handful of them don't have access to... ACT on their screen?
    (4)

  7. #57
    Player
    Droxybrobotnik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Posts
    179
    Character
    Cute Milk'itkatt
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 90
    I play the game in a way I'm more happy with without cheating. I don't give a damn about consoles, there is a reason why so many opts to spend extra on PC
    (1)

  8. #58
    Player
    Jaquan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    235
    Character
    Kirya Nordrain
    World
    Spriggan
    Main Class
    Weaver Lv 77
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaray View Post
    Even so, is the unofficial world race such a sacred thing that it's worth ruining everyone else's experiences because of the perceived possibility that of the 100~ odd people in that race, a handful of them don't have access to... ACT on their screen?
    I'd say so? MMO community always seemed to keep those that reach those heights in high regard. They're often at the forefront when they reach their goal and seen as an example. It apparently is prestigious enough that they're willing to use technically bannable tool to measure their progress.
    (0)

  9. #59
    Player
    Grebeny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Posts
    59
    Character
    Rude Delahayne
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaray View Post
    God Kefka (Trine), Gaia Pt2 (Hourglass), Zodiark (Snakes).

    Can you provide relevant examples to FFXIV and not CS:GO?
    We played with my color blind friend Kefka and had no issues at all, but I will not go there because I know there are different kinds of color blind and some people may have issues to see the "yellow on yellow" phase, while other color blind depending on their own issue may have no problem with it. The clocks have different picture on them, as far as I am aware how colorblind works, you should be able to see the picture atleast on the red clocks. I would say it is more likely the community is not used to use the color blind hints that really generate issues because while we were aware of our friend in the static, when we played in some random groups, they were pretty unprepared to not use "purple, red, yellow and etc" for feedback.

    EDIT: Zodiark was just box, square, circle, if I understand the mechanic you are refering to.

    I gave example with CS go because I don't want to write the name of the specific mod used by at least one of the suspended FF players. But lets say that the entire World First group on the last ultimate used UI addons, but only the red mage was banned, who was using addon revealing information invisible for players without addons. Bengal or whatever his name was, who got suspended too, had the same addon, I didn't checked the guy from Japan, but I am 95% sure he was using it too. It was visible visual feedback helping with mobility that is hidden by default and players should train a lot to perfect it.
    (0)
    Last edited by Grebeny; 05-12-2022 at 12:05 AM.

  10. #60
    Player
    SwingLifeAway's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2022
    Location
    New Gridania
    Posts
    131
    Character
    Oberon Astraxis
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 90
    I can't believe that people genuinely don't want to acknowledge that there is a difference between Quality of Life and cheating.
    (5)

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