Can we point out to how bad it is that SE bends the knee to chan brigades?

[Hitake]

How on earth did this community win best community i swear you are all just as toxic as wow players if not worse. (Im not excluding myself here i am full of salt and toxic stuff atm)

[Heavenchild]

How on earth did this community win best community i swear you are all just as toxic as wow players if not worse. (Im not excluding myself here i am full of salt and toxic stuff atm)

We could pretent like 'it's all the new players that came from other games last year'. xD
But..., I think that would be not true. I don't know why people are doing this. But I think jealousy and enviousness/resentment are playing a major role in this. : (

[Sebazy]

Did you read the posts on 5chan yourself? Or do you receive information filtered by someone with an [un/announced] agenda?

There are screen caps circulating if you look for them. Arthas linked some on his twitter for example. Linking the posts directly isn't possible because A) It's a pretty good way to get a forum ban given what gets posted on these boards and B) most won't be able to read the posts anyway because of region and vpn blocks.

Would you please give some examples of obvious "ways this could have been done without causing anything like the same level of fallout in the community" that would have the same impact on those who were banned? This one cannot make a reasonable answer to that question, and hopes for enlightenment.

Absolutely, I've commented on this before and was tempted to repeat it in the post above but didn't want to drag it out too much.

If things genuinely did pan out as I suspect they did and this was simply a GM acting on a huge number of reports focusing on one specific person, I'd have waited until the stream ended, before pulling them into Gaol, giving them an account warning, specifically addressing their mod usage as the reasoning behind this action and then hitting them with a 12 hour ban to make it very clear that they need to change things going forward or the ban will be permanent.

If I was tasked with making a 'clear show of force' so to speak to put the streamers in their place, I'd have pulled them into the gaol mid raid, flagged them with an official account warning, given them a very firm 'stop using mods so obviously on stream' talking down and hit them with a 12 hour ban.

Why a 12 hour ban? This will be just as impactful to the actual player behind the stream and still sends out a strong message to the streaming community as a whole. However it keeps the negative impact specifically targeted at the streamer themselves. They can carry on with their streaming the next day minus the mods and it doesn't negatively impact the people tuning in onto their stream to watch their DSR progression. Why do I say this? Bagelgoose and Hiroro are likely simply playing an alt or borrowing a friends character to carry on with their DSR progression until their ban is up. So who's really losing out here? IMHO it's both SE for the positive publicity these progression streams generate and the streamers audience who are missing out on the toughest raid push in years.

I can't speak for Hiroro as I don't know them or their content, but Bagelgoose's day one DSR stream was a textbook example of how to legitimately tackle tough content blind whilst having fun with a group of mates. It was a brilliant stream and it's a huge shame it's likely gone because of this drama.

[Skiros]

How on earth did this community win best community i swear you are all just as toxic as wow players if not worse. (Im not excluding myself here i am full of salt and toxic stuff atm)

This community has always been super tox lol

[Catnipx]

How on earth did this community win best community i swear you are all just as toxic as wow players if not worse. (Im not excluding myself here i am full of salt and toxic stuff atm)

We paid em big dollas

[HyperiusUltima]

I think the only thing that's really nagging at me is their language that they used in the Letter to us about Third Party Tools. So...I QUOTE:

We believe that people use the aforementioned tools to expand the HUD and display more information because they feel that existing functions are insufficient for tackling high-end duties. In recognition of this, we intend to review the most prominent tools, and in order to discourage their use, endeavor to enhance the functionality of the HUD. Though it will take some time, we're determined to make it happen─not least for the benefit of those who play on consoles.

THIS. This right here is what is confusing. Basically, their stance has been hard for years - No Third Party Tools. Simple as that. They took a black and white stance on it and have kept to it. However, the fact that they are wanting to review these Third Party Tools such as SimpleTweaks and Dalamud show that they are willing to copy Little Timmy's homework after they made a significant contribution to the community at large - because XIV's UI Team has been lacking when it comes to displaying information and keeping track of things in-game.

The big question however is has there been UI proposals pushed before? Because if there hasn't, then basically that is on us, the community, for not providing that feedback. If we did, then that is on their UI team for taking such a long ass time to improve the systems we have in place. I just need an answer as to whether we did or did not provide the feedback before we got this letter.

I did a quick lookback at the User Interface subforum, and I found the latest quote which was half a year ago:

Dunno if its been said here or not but

The option to see the timer of buffs on the party list.

I quite frankly do not see why this hasn't been in the game ages ago. I would like to see my buff duration on the party, especially HoTs (heals over time). I would LOVE to see how long Living Dead is going on my DRK tank and how long I have to heal them when Waking Dead is activated. Same with Superboilde.

Yes, I could use the focus target, but why? We see the buffs on the party list. Why can't we see how long they last on our party members?

In addition to this, I'd also like the option to prioritize our own buffs on the party over other party members'. Or, if possible a queue order of buffs we deem important. So Living Dead/Superboilde doesn't get drown out by other buffs simply because it came first and the other buffs push it out.

This is the UI Team and the Development Team's fault for not addressing this request. In fact, Third Party Tools would not have been exacerbated as much as they have been in a negative context if their team had bothered to do implementation. Also mind you, this was BEFORE 6.0. During Shadowbringers. ToS or no, they are to blame. If anything, I feel like maybe they should extend an arm out to the community more often than simply keeping their cards to their chest until Naoki Yoshida decides to let the cat out of the bag. I like XIV, and I have had a lot of fun from it, but they need to talk to us more than just once every 3 months.

[gotaname1]

Another issue I think is that we dont actually own the time we spend in the game. You are paying a subscription, which is basically an entry pass to do things in Yoshi P's dream world. Nothing you do, get, or create, is truly owned by you. Ever. The fact people are making the game better to get more milage out of it seems a big problem for a MMO when they don't really update QoL. How much are people willing to simp for a company that treats its 'consumers' like that?

[Ashennae]

Yeah it's pretty bad that SE gave in to the chan brigades. Also, streamers should be careful to not break TOS while their actions are on display to the general public. Both statements can coexist.

[EtherRose]

Then explain why they don't go after all the various obvious fate, eureka, crafting, housing etc etc bots that have been reported over the years?

Spoiler: It's likely because they weren't reported in the sort of numbers that 5ch are throwing.

It raises two issues here:

A) And this is a big one. A 'crime' should be handled accordingly to it's severity. Not by how many people are shouting and screaming for 'justice'.

B)The punishment seems pretty excessive, not only to the streamer themselves, but the rest of their DSR team that's now basically had their progression reset or put on pause for 10 days and even the community that's following their progress.

"Obvious" bots. Here's the thing. It may seem "Obvious" but how would you actually prove it is a bot? It being obvious doesn't mean it is because you have nothing to go off of other than "Look! It's acting like a bot!". The only thing "Obvious" is the YouTuber's/Streamers running ACT and a bunch of mods on their screen while playing.

There is no issue. Break the ToS and you get punished. You and other's knew full well what would happen and still played in the fire. Now that you got burned you want to cry wolf.

[gotaname1]

Yeah it's pretty bad that SE gave in to the chan brigades. Also, streamers should be careful to not break TOS while their actions are on display to the general public. Both statements can coexist.

IMO it really doesnt hold any water to ban streamers at all at this time, even before this whole drama happened. If they really wanted to be clear and have an enforcable ToS, they should have been more clear from day 1 and enforced it as such from day one. Especially since Yoshi P keeps refering that he used WoW as an example/inspiration. Now streamers have been using addons on streams for years. And now, and only now, someone was banned for allegedly using a voldemort that shows numbers and did not even harras people with it? Sorry, but no. Absolutely in no world can the ToS be used as an excuse for what happened anymore IMO.

And considering how SE or Yoshi has gone about it, I dont think they are going to reverse the ban, or do anything more to improve the situation for the playerbase, other than write an intentionally vague newsletter to abuse the playerbase with if literally anything of any kind will happen in the future. It sets a scary precedence where they can just refer to that newsletter or ToS for anything. That's some totalitarian crud right there!