Use of tools that allow players to more easily complete content. Discord?

[Saraide]

Discord is obviously allowed. We all agree on how stupid it would be if it wasnt. The point of threads like this is not to argue that discord should get you banned, it's to prove that just pointing at the ToS and go "well read what's written" is meaningless. Rules need to be interpreted for the goal they are trying to achieve, not followed to the letter. The ToS are not meant to enable malicious brigade reports, they are meant to solve actual problems. No one who report brigaded had an actual problem with the first streamer they hit, it was just to try it out.

Hardcore rule sticking does not prevent loopholes from being exploited, it creates them. Rather than asking what does a rule say, you should be asking what does it mean to achieve. Remember, if the only thing bad about an action is that it's illegal then it shouldnt be illegal at all. An action has to be illegal because it's bad, not the other way around.

And a lot of mods/third party tools dont have a negative impact or provide more upsides than downsides. In the case of ACT it's already covered under harassment if you decide to be a toxic person with ACT.

I reject this notion that if SE would do nothing after mass reports it would harm their reputation and make them look incompetent. It proves the opposite. It shows that they wont just cave in to some stupid demand just because a lot of malicious people yell about it. Instead they commit to their current approach. What makes them look incompetent is at the same time admitting that the UI features in this game are lacking and then banning people for fixing it.

Overall streamers will survive having ACT off screen and a vanilla UI. It's nothing more than a meaningless token gesture afterall. What I think SE should take a hard stance on is hyper toxic forums like the one that instigated this report brigade. They are not doing it to make the game better, they're doing it for "fun". And SE has the means to act on them. They have the records on who participated in the report brigades and they can terminate any account for any reason. They have the means, they just lack the conviction to make sure their own ToS are used with good intentions.

[Grebeny]

Discord is obviously allowed. We all agree on how stupid it would be if it wasnt. The point of threads like this is not to argue that discord should get you banned, it's to prove that just pointing at the ToS and go "well read what's written" is meaningless. Rules need to be interpreted for the goal they are trying to achieve, not followed to the letter. The ToS are not meant to enable malicious brigade reports, they are meant to solve actual problems. No one who report brigaded had an actual problem with the first streamer they hit, it was just to try it out.

It is pretty clear what they mean. Third party tool is something that interacts with the game in a way. Changing files, packages, collecting online data and so on. There is no need for Square enix to explain you that, go to any IT in the world and ask them what third party tool attached to another tool is and they will tell you, your claim "it is not clear if discord is third party tool or not", is a joke.

And a lot of mods/third party tools dont have a negative impact or provide more upsides than downsides. In the case of ACT it's already covered under harassment if you decide to be a toxic person with ACT.

ACT is not covered by the harrasment, but by the no third party agreement. Yoshida claimed they can't catch you if you are using one, but they will ban you if you try to use ACT to harass people, interviews are not ToS, they are just a conversation, do you understand the difference?

I reject this notion that if SE would do nothing after mass reports it would harm their reputation and make them look incompetent. It proves the opposite. It shows that they wont just cave in to some stupid demand just because a lot of malicious people yell about it. Instead they commit to their current approach. What makes them look incompetent is at the same time admitting that the UI features in this game are lacking and then banning people for fixing it.

This is really bad argument. First at all, not all of the mods that were on the banned streamers were "quality of life", if I have "aura" around enemy players in a shooter even when they are behind wall, it is just UI, do you still call it quality of life or cheating? Square enix told that they will look into it and decide what to add, that does not mean they will add the exact modification the streamers were banned for. Even if they do so, if they decided this is giving the players advantage at this point of time, at this point of time when the ban is taking place, those people have advantage above the players without the mod, even if it is added to the game later on, it is still cheating at the moment when it is used.

[Saraide]

It is pretty clear what they mean. Third party tool is something that interacts with the game in a way. Changing files, packages, collecting online data and so on. There is no need for Square enix to explain you that, go to any IT in the world and ask them what third party tool attached to another tool is and they will tell you, your claim "it is not clear if discord is third party tool or not", they will just laugh at you.

ACT is not covered by the harrasment, but by the no third party agreement. Yoshida claimed they can't catch you if you are using one, but they will ban you if you try to use ACT to harass people, interviews are not ToS, they are just a conversation, do you understand the difference?

This is really bad argument. First at all, not all of the mods that were on the banned streamers were "quality of life", if I have "aura" around enemy players in a shooter even when they are behind wall, it is just UI, do you still call it quality of life or cheating? Square enix told that they will look into it and decide what to add, that does not mean they will add the exact modification the streamers were banned for. Even if they do so, if they decided this is giving the players advantage at this point of time, at this point of time when the ban is taking place, those people have advantage above the players without the mod, even if it is added to the game later on, it is still cheating at the moment when it is used.

From the ToS themselves it's not clear what they mean, nor should it be. This obviously bad faith argument about discord is trying to get people to not just look to the ToS for is written but what is meant.
ACT is absolutely adressed through the rules against harassment, not by what's written in the ToS but by how they are applied. It just takes someone to use it responsibily to never get punished for it. And that's the point, fairly obvious in that famous live letter where yoship talked about ACT and parsers in more debt. Interviews that contain clarification are arguably more important than what's written because they can go more indepth at what the ToS actually mean to achieve.

Lastly the people being banned right now are not getting banned for pvp cheats. They're just banning random pve streamers that got into the crosshair of malicous forums. This is just a performative action, it will not adress anything. PVP cheaters will continue to go unadressed because they're not streaming, gathering bots will continue to go unadressed because they are also not streaming. I agree that pvp cheaters and bots are a problem but if you think the current handling of the ToS by SE will but a stop to that then you are unrealistically optimistic and I have a bridge in brooklyn to sell to you.

[Grebeny]

From the ToS themselves it's not clear what they mean, nor should it be. This obviously bad faith argument about discord is trying to get people to not just look to the ToS for is written but what is meant.
ACT is absolutely adressed through the rules against harassment, not by what's written in the ToS but by how they are applied. It just takes someone to use it responsibily to never get punished for it. And that's the point, fairly obvious in that famous live letter where yoship talked about ACT and parsers in more debt. Interviews that contain clarification are arguably more important than what's written because they can go more indepth at what the ToS actually mean to achieve.

No, ToS says absolutely nothing about ACT, it doesn't exist there. The only mention of ACT specifically IS IN THE INTERVIEW. And Yoshi P confirmed it is against ToS, but he can't prevent people from using it. He said if they try to harass other players with it, they will get the ban. The "grey zone" termin was never used niether by SE, nor Yoshida, that was something the community came up with because he didn't said they will straigh forward ban people for it. This is why it is important to actually watch the interview, not repeat after internet. And anyway, none of the players was banned for ACT, they had other mods that people are closing their eyes for at the moment, because some of the UI tweaks were revealing information hidden from player by design.

[Saraide]

snip

The term grey zone (regarding third party tools in general) was used unless you disagree with the translation of this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_i6mjiGerU which you might but since I dont speak japanese I cant comment on the correctness of this translation.

I have watched the interview basically every time a thread like this pops up because there will always be someone (you in this case) assuming that I didnt. The UI modifications currently targeted are very minor and the actual advantage it gives is questionable at most, nowhere near many legit advantages some players have over others. Does that mean I am on board with all of them, obviously not but that's not the issue at hand. The issue should always be focused around "is this player causing a problem?". ToS are a tool to consider in that question but can never be the sole authority.

The problem SE sees with ACT is not that it's a third party program but that it could very easily be used for harassment. He says that pretty clearly. If the only problem that exists with ACT was that it's a third party program (and absolutely nothing else) then SE would have implemented a parser. This is what I mean with something cant be bad because it's illegal, it has to be the other way around. I agree on their stance that an endorsed parser would absolutely be used in toxic ways, that's why I thought the way of handling it was the correct one, even if that way introduces other problems.

How rules are applied (or if they even are enforcable) matters far more than what is written. SE does not care about parsers, not because they dont want to care but because they cant care. They dont care about UI mods, not because they dont want to care but because they cannot care. SE does not care about pvp and gathering bots, not because they dont want to care but because they dont care for the arm's race that would be kicked off by it. What SE actually cares about is their bottom line, they are a company and a quite greedy one at that.

What I think people need to realize is that the bans handed out now against streamers are entirely performative. In the grand scheme of things this is a storm in a teacup. I dont know how many people have been banned because of report brigades by now (a thing yoship has very clearly spoken out against in that LL) nor does it matter. If 3 people either dont stream anymore or hide all modified things from stream then that does nothing. Nothing of value has been achieved and nothing of value will be achieved by these reports.

What I am actually concerned with are hyper toxic forums like 5chan. They provide nothing of value to the game, the only thing they can and want to do is to destroy. The game wont be better if they get what they want, they'll just look for a new thing to destroy. They'll forge evidence if they have to. People like that can be obsessivly dedicated.