My long-standing gripes with MCH and physical ranged in general

[tearagion]

Stop talking. You're contributing nothing to the discussion. You're only here to be antagonistic and contrarian strictly for the sake of being antagonistic and contrarian.

Also I'm not impressed with the declaration of TEA prog by someone who's hiding on private. Come back when you actually clear and maybe I'll care. Until then I have no reason to believe you've ever even cleared a Savage tier while it was current, let alone have the understanding of this current tier or the current Ultimate and the horrendous situation MCH is in within both, especially considering your MCH is at level 82.

I'm not trying to impress you, and I keep logs hidden (good job looking that up too) because I don't log any runs ever, and because of people like you who immediately go looking for anything as ad hominem ammunition instead of engaging in any way with an opposing viewpoint without the use of logical fallacies, which you haven't limited to ad hominems.

[CKNovel]

rDPS on MCH is on par with the other phys ranged

And that's the problem, it should be slightly higher. BLM has no utility but no one complains about the job being higher than RDM/SMN.
Yes, BLM is a "complex" job but SMN isn't and still performs better than any ranged.

MCH has 2 additionnal weakpoints that isn't its rDPS:
-It's a gauge based job, meaning long and streched out downtime will hurt the MCH while DNC will benefit a lot from downtime due to DNC being cooldown based. If BRD could sing without target, MCH would be the only job suffering from downtime.
-AoE, DNC has a lot of natural cleaves and BRD isn't bad either with double targets. MCH AoEs needs the targets to be stacked. Ricochet and Bio Blaster don't have a lot of range (or gain for BB). Chainsaw is a massive 65% less damage for additional targets. BRD and DNC also share these reduced splash damage but they also have much more.

That is to say, even if MCH had 2 support actions to compete with Improvisation and Cure Waltz, it would still struggle to compete in its own role.

[butchersblock]

I think it's a skill issue personally. Have you tried improving?

[Mortex]

And that's the problem, it should be slightly higher. BLM has no utility but no one complains about the job being higher than RDM/SMN.
Yes, BLM is a "complex" job but SMN isn't and still performs better than any ranged.

MCH has 2 additionnal weakpoints that isn't its rDPS:
-It's a gauge based job, meaning long and streched out downtime will hurt the MCH while DNC will benefit a lot from downtime due to DNC being cooldown based. If BRD could sing without target, MCH would be the only job suffering from downtime.
-AoE, DNC has a lot of natural cleaves and BRD isn't bad either with double targets. MCH AoEs needs the targets to be stacked. Ricochet and Bio Blaster don't have a lot of range (or gain for BB). Chainsaw is a massive 65% less damage for additional targets. BRD and DNC also share these reduced splash damage but they also have much more.

That is to say, even if MCH had 2 support actions to compete with Improvisation and Cure Waltz, it would still struggle to compete in its own role.

Yes but blm is the only exception in the entire game, even pre change samurai had less dmg then monk. I mean I could make a joke about blm being yoshi p his main job. But yeah we can agree mch sucks massively. It is effectively like samurai vs monk. Monk has good utility and more dmg then Sam and there isn’t any problems there for whatever reason

[butchersblock]

I'm not trying to impress you, and I keep logs hidden (good job looking that up too) because I don't log any runs ever, and because of people like you who immediately go looking for anything as ad hominem ammunition instead of engaging in any way with an opposing viewpoint without the use of logical fallacies, which you haven't limited to ad hominems.

I love how this person goes on about how you're just being antagonistic and contrarian just for the sake of it while doing the exact same thing with other job suggestion threads.

[HolyReign]

I love how this person goes on about how you're just being antagonistic and contrarian just for the sake of it while doing the exact same thing with other job suggestion threads.

Almost like what you're doing with your reply, right?

[tearagion]

And that's the problem, it should be slightly higher. BLM has no utility but no one complains about the job being higher than RDM/SMN.
Yes, BLM is a "complex" job but SMN isn't and still performs better than any ranged.

MCH has 2 additionnal weakpoints that isn't its rDPS:
-It's a gauge based job, meaning long and streched out downtime will hurt the MCH while DNC will benefit a lot from downtime due to DNC being cooldown based. If BRD could sing without target, MCH would be the only job suffering from downtime.
-AoE, DNC has a lot of natural cleaves and BRD isn't bad either with double targets. MCH AoEs needs the targets to be stacked. Ricochet and Bio Blaster don't have a lot of range (or gain for BB). Chainsaw is a massive 65% less damage for additional targets. BRD and DNC also share these reduced splash damage but they also have much more.

That is to say, even if MCH had 2 support actions to compete with Improvisation and Cure Waltz, it would still struggle to compete in its own role.

I already said it should be bumped up, what I'm arguing against is the 1: hysterical approach of the OP. It's perfectly playable if never optimal. And 2: that his suggestions beyond potency buffs are either unreasonable or erode the current MCH identity. I think it's a very difficult position for SE mostly because melee gets 2 slots as a standard so SAM has more wiggle room, and SMN and RDM have raises so BLM rDPS is more negotiable with anyone who progs. If MCH was decently higher rDPS than the other two options the other two would disappear, other than DNC in prog for curing and improv.

[CKNovel]

"Playable" depends on the context.
We have the famous ping problem, Flamethrower being an enigma unless you know the tricks behind it for a worthless gain and I'll never stop pointing at the Automaton Queen.
Outside of these, yes MCH is perfectly playable.

Your point is "if MCH was too high, then the other ranged would disappear". But this isn't true.
Reaper lags behind the other melees but remains popular. Samurai on the other hand brings a good amount of damage but its popularity remains average, even below Reaper.
Once again, this strengthen the idea that players use the job they like the most. And the survival utility is valuable.

But I think we all agree that MCH needs survival utility.
It could remain at this status if it had the utility to compense for its low damage, but SQEX should also shift some power from the gauges to the MCH abilities in order to make it less... "griefing" in content with long and repeated downtime.

Current ultimate has some DPS check and they strike in both of MCH weaknesses. Its AoEs will struggle to reach multiple targets and its gauge based gameplay suffers from the multiple downtime. MCH is simply not an attractive choice at all at the moment.

[tearagion]

"Playable" depends on the context.
We have the famous ping problem, Flamethrower being an enigma unless you know the tricks behind it for a worthless gain and I'll never stop pointing at the Automaton Queen.
Outside of these, yes MCH is perfectly playable.

Your point is "if MCH was too high, then the other ranged would disappear". But this isn't true.
Reaper lags behind the other melees but remains popular. Samurai on the other hand brings a good amount of damage but its popularity remains average, even below Reaper.
Once again, this strengthen the idea that players use the job they like the most. And the survival utility is valuable.

But I think we all agree that MCH needs survival utility.
It could remain at this status if it had the utility to compense for its low damage, but SQEX should also shift some power from the gauges to the MCH abilities in order to make it less... "griefing" in content with long and repeated downtime.

Current ultimate has some DPS check and they strike in both of MCH weaknesses. Its AoEs will struggle to reach multiple targets and its gauge based gameplay suffers from the multiple downtime. MCH is simply not an attractive choice at all at the moment.

I already defined what I see as the context as well. This is admittedly more subjective.

It definitely would, comparatively, and in the previous contexts. The dearth of RPR and SAM in DSR isn't coincidence, they (like MCH) are not as strong numerically as the competition, and most DSR clears operated in the previously defined context of high-end progression. The problem MCH has is its competition doesn't offer anything as powerful as a raise (this is its own debate in caster threads), so MCH can't reasonably be buffed to, say, slightly weaker than the lowest melee because then it would be the clear choice in all circumstances over DNC and BRD. DNC only offers 550 potency of healing a minute and a 10% HP shield every 2 mins if you can idle for 12s (or 5% for no idling), and BRD only offers Warden's and Nature's, a few healer GCDs of damage per minute added to MCH and both of these lose a lot of their value (the shield remaining the most valuable). I don't envy SE for the job of balancing the phys ranged, but I suppose they dug their own hole.

I completely agree that MCH has too many...questionable decisions from a technical standpoint and that it erodes the satisfaction, and equitable performance of the job. I don't think a personal barrier would be unreasonable, and Wildfire needs some mechanical and numerical help. Wildfire is where I would look towards so that MCH can lean into raidbuffs more effectively. Nonetheless, making unreasonable and questionable suggestions is entirely fruitless, plenty of groups don't care if you want to play MCH, and you can clear anything on MCH.

[iiTzSeb]

I think it's a skill issue personally. Have you tried improving?

Have you tried leveling a job past SHB?