The difficulty curve in the game has... problems...

[LeonKeyh]

Well, if you envision a strait line that slightly goes up when you level up through the MSQ and then starts quickly accelerating at max level into the sky, that's what the curve looks like. It's not normally like this when they start a new expansion, but when they start ramping gear at end game the challenges of normal content, if any, become way smaller. Unreal -> Extreme Trial -> Savage -> Ultimates is sort of the end game curve, but practically speaking most people just skip the unreal and extreme trials to go do savage and consider those other two things as side content. At least for the people who are seeking the challenging content.

That's a fairly drastic look at the difficult curve of the game.

I agree that the curve isn't great, but "shoots out at max level into the sky" is not nearly how it is. Normal content continues to be fairly easy and forgiving for those who stick with it. I would agree that the curve is bad, it's flat for too long before it starts ramping up. But once it starts ramping up it does so at a decent pace.

To answer the original intent of the post:

The question that the devs should be asking themselves is this: Why are these other kinds of players that do not want hardship doing content that involves taking excessive amounts of time to complete, often at the sacrifice of newer content, for excessive numbers of weeks?

Because people now-a-days can't possibly conceive the idea that some content isn't meant for them. That the content is meant for the people who want to go through that "hardship" (of which there are plenty). People expect everything to be accessible and easy and that's not what that content is for. That content is for people who want to challenge themselves.

The people complaining about this are the same people "demanding" an "easy mode" in Elden Ring. It's just not for you. Move on. I used to be in a world first raiding group in Everquest 2, I used to definitely be a hardcore gamer. Now? I just don't have the time. So I don't do Extreme Trials/Savage/Ultimate; and THAT'S OK. I realize that content isn't for me, but they are things that other people enjoy.

[Kolsykol]

I do like to train and overcome fights, but...

If someone wants to use third party tools, not just parsers, but also auto-combos and whatnot, why should I care ? I know, I know, SE does now, and that may be for the best, but why would you care about what other peoples are doing to get something they want ? The fights I overcame and the rewards I got do not get diminished by them.

I think that most people feel like it compromises and minimizes their own accomplishments when others can do that.
It's the same with P2W too it's a very normal feeling that extends to other aspects of life too.
People don't like feeling as if others can overcome something with less effort than they had to put in.
I don't think you're in the norm here.

It also will become normal and expected if they allow it.
Even if people want challenging content people will still use and find stuff to minimize the challenge.
It's pretty contradictory but I think it's definitely true.
Even people who are good at Souls games will still often be drawn into using cheese and glitches it's almost like they're being compelled by an urge to do it even tho they have less fun doing it and feel like it's less rewarding.

And when I beat Elden Ring without cheese and abusing op spells, summons and weapons or glitches it did feel a bit shitty when I looked into it how completely braindead it was if you decide to use that.
People don't like feeling as if they've drastically nerfed themselves by not using something and it does kinda diminish your feeling of accomplishment when you can also just run in and spam left trigger with a summon to kill the hardest boss in the game.
I think it's fairly common to feel like it compromises it and makes it less exciting.
Saying that you beat a boss becomes less impressive then because it can mean anything from actually learning the boss and fighting it '' properly '' or it can mean running in and spamming left trigger.

I know some people really hate stuff like Elmo in P3S because of that, I think that's perhaps taking it a bit too far but I think most people feel this way on some level and in WoW it does seem like the majority of people really dislike the use of Addons and how it affects the game design but they still use it themselves.

[NanaWiloh]

Not all content is for you end of story.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

The question that the devs should be asking themselves is this: Why are these other kinds of players that do not want hardship doing content that involves taking excessive amounts of time to complete, often at the sacrifice of newer content, for excessive numbers of weeks?

I'm trying to discern if you're trying to say "Why are bad players trying and failing at hard content" or "the devs should ask why more players don't engage with said content" The answer to both is the same as anything else: Effort.

Your post is kind of all over the place but let's address the key points:

1. Solving a Difficulty Problem

People aren't making tools to circumvent difficulty or to make it more accessible. They're doing it to make it easier. They're doing it to make things take less time.All of the raids including Savage are doable without any kind of third party software/assistance. The difficulty doesn't "ramp up" all of a sudden and if you pay the sligthest amount of attention to not only previous content but the light version of savage/ex/etc fights you will know how to handle the harder ones to some extent.

That's why I like the game's design mentality. They take a mechanic, then that same mechanic comes back later but now with a twist. Or you see a fight in a normal version, and then the savage version of it is the same mechanic but amped up to 11. It's not like they pop up out of nowhere (usually).

2. Fancy Rewards

The point of putting a carrot on a stick is so that people chase the carrot. If you give them a stick they're going to just say "okay" and leave. Rewards get people playing.

The balancing act is the totem/mount rewards that are either there for bragging rights or just to have them. It's not like it's a mobile gacha game or something, the game has conceivable "tracks" to go on to get the rewards you desire.

3. Dumbing Down of Jobs

This is kinda silly considering one of the most prevalent arguments in the "hardcore" spheres outside of Dragonsong was that most content was too easy because the jobs are too easy to use now and everyone knows their kits due to the lack of substantial shifts/changes after SHB.

If your job being made easier somehow makes "Now you have to actually get out of the AOE" too hard for you then maybe the game isn't for you? I don't think I've hit a dps check outside of savage in a long time, and the rest of the savage tier currently is mainly just getting your group to move in tandem to not wipe.

Not only do a million and one different varieties of guides exist/get created every year (Hector is one of my favorite new additions to my guide references, he does great shit) but the content is never and has never (outside of arguably ultimate) been an insurmountable task. This last EX was a joke, especially compared to Hades from ShB. If you couldn't handle 5 heads I'm sorry.

There is no reason you need a robotic voice to tell you and show you where to stand and what to do at every second of the fight. There is no reason you need third party tools to track your own skills. There is no reason to need third party tools in a game designed without them in mind.

An argument about accessibility becomes moot when the only application of said tools is to exempt the human interaction from it entirely. People aren't using callouts because they're slow or disabled, they're using them because that means they don't have to think. These tools are crutches that people rely on because for some reason they either can't stand the idea of expending effort in anything or just aren't strong enough to go without a new shiny for a few weeks until the content becomes trivialized 10 ilevels later.

People like to get mad about those who say "some games/pieces of content aren't for you" until something they like is under scrutiny. If you want to steamroll new/harder content, wait a few months to out level it with gear. The game is built around having counter systems to this problem innately meaning the defense for these tools once again falls apart.

Reading more of your posts:

Leadership and guidance is something that is missing from savage that is provided in-game during normal content through visual queues in the fights, which in combination with zero enrage timers enables that content to be playable by just about all people who play this game.

There's two counters to this.

One, the normal version of the fight gives you the frame of reference (usually) to know what the base versions of endgame mechanics are. Even if they resolve slightly different, the aoes and telegraphs that are "absent" help you know.

Two, The point of difficult content is to be difficult. If you keep getting knocked off the stage by a pushback mechanic in a fight with a move every time, without eventually going "maybe I should actually use my pushback mitigation" then that's on the player. That's not a gate made by the game, that's you/the player refusing to acknowledge why you died.

There should be difficult content, and adding an enrage timer and taking out a few telegraphs isn't the"LEAP" that you're making it out to sound. It's not like you go from EW-Trial1 to EW-EX1 and all of a sudden every mechanic changes. It's built upon something you've already HAD to clear to get to that point. That's why it's well designed.

But the issue is that the second someone steps into doing savage or extreme trials, the guidance is taken away and enrage timers are applied.

And? That's why the content is called "Extreme" and "Savage." I'm not going to complain on the forums that I can't get an ultimate clear because I'm not BiS. I'm going to realize that the content is labelled as such that I need to know what I need to prep and know in order to join said content.

Mods that were developed in World of Warcraft were designed to fill the gap of missing guidance and enabled groups with poor leadership and learning skills to tackle content they otherwise would be unable to handle, which then lead to an arms race between the devs and the community at large where they started making content to meet some arbitrary difficulty wall for player retention.

Now I know this is a bait post. "Player retention" when the game has done things the same way for years and done nothing but grow its playerbase due to HOW it handles its content vs WoW and other MMos is certainly a take.

[Jirah]

What curve

[Tobias_Azuryon]

One last reply because the more I keep seeing the more otherworldly and alien this take seems to get.

The difficulty curve has no customization to it that is accessible from the players own end, which is one of the major reasons that people end up making ways to make the content easier.

This is in multiple forms including ilevel, actual player level in new expansions, and the echo. So yes there is a curve you just won't get it instantaneously without any effort, sorry for your loss.

The idea of having a slow gear ramp up until the next content patch to make content easier is dated and lazy design.

So the attempt here is to call the game lazy while championing tools that make the game easier for you so you can be...more lazy....?

If someone wants to down the savage content with 15% echo on from day one because they want to complete the content and go do other content they are releasing because they lack the time to deal with min-iLvL and pentameld, they should have the option to do so with a group.

That's called a static. And they exist and help and carry people all the time. I've seen the carried people join me in EXes and not know how to handle things when the other team isn't doing everything for them. We do not want more of this lol.

And if this makes savage overall easier to complete all the better because right now the savage experience deteriorates into the floor after the first month for progression.

So content should be made easier because hard content should be easier because other people are already past it? But if you're already weeks later you can have tome gear and/or crafted gear by then? So you're already being compensated for joining in later?

People clear content and then go on to do reclear groups with other people that clear content.

The last thing I want to do when I beat hard content and want to farm is to then be saddled with people who can't live through the first mechanic. This is fair and makes sense. And doesn't even weed out the carries from the farm parties.

And with the new class designs there are a lot more people trying to clear savage now than there was even in Shadowbringers.

But if more people are playing now doesn't that mean more people to help? A bigger pool of players doesn't mean content should be easier?

There is not a single person on this forum who can say with a strait face that they have a "fun and enjoyable time" doing PF after the first wave of prog is over and everyone is now stuck on something like p3s because of fight design.

Having a "bad time" does not invalidate the many "good times" I've had. Blind progging is a blast. Sure it becomes moot as soon as the guides are out but I love doing random pfs on new content at harder difficulty like last expac blind and seeing just how far we can get. It is indeed a fun and enjoyable time.

Now if you fast forward months later when guides are out and people are queuing up and can't figure out basic numbers in P3S, or figure out how to not stand in the birds path, then yes that's less fun but that's not the game's fault.

Not to mention this applies for statics that can't get in more than two days in a week.

I actually do agree on the front that it sucks that I have to punish people to queue up in savage raid content if I want to help them out and they're not in the static. I should just be locked out of rolls, not punish all the other players because I cleared that week already and want to help a friend learn the fight or clear.

I mean, level sync the gear in savage and let people have a difficulty slider via echo. Problem solved. If people want to achieve clearing at the min-ilvl, they can go back and do it after learning how the fight works so the field is actually fair.

See herein lies you showing the problem. You want everyone else to work around your desired method of play but you don't want to do the same thing. You don't want to wait for echo and don't want to wait for ilevels but you want other people to somehow convince players to nerf themselves AFTER content is out to run it?

The ilevel and echo buff already exists, you're just upset you can't faceroll the content first week it's out.

[Issaella]

*snip*

I've gone back on forth on responding to this since I saw this thread a couple days ago, but as someone who has been trying unsuccessfully work up the courage to do current Savage I feel you are wrong on a number of points. For one, I agree with the OP and others in this thread that there is no ramp-up in endgame difficulty in this game, at all. The difference between doing a raid boss on Normal vs Savage is -to use a WoW comparison- the difference between raidfinder bosses and late heroic/mythic bosses (I feel I'm being generous with later heroic), there is nothing in between. And the amount of mechanical overlap between the two is like teaching someone to drive automatic, then putting them behind a manual transmission race car and walking away saying "well, the first 2 pedals and steering wheel are similar, figure it out". Then telling them to keep driving until they get 1st place in a national race, until then they will get no compensation (and if anyone more experienced helps them then they have almost no chance of compensation).

Additionally I would argue that overgearing any current savage is essentially moot due to the sheer number of instakill/instawipe mechanics, where most failures are not recoverable. The only thing overgearing does is speed up the kills for people who can already do the mechanics. For people struggling on the mechanics it doesn't really help at all, because it seems like there are really only 3 outcomes in Savage; 1) make a mistake and you die, the odds of clearing are now negligible, 2) make a mistake and everyone dies, start over, 3) perform flawlessly and succeed. I may be wrong on that, but after watching guides/walkthroughs for a couple weeks trying to psych myself up, I'm even more hesitant because the amount of personal responsibility is such that if everyone isn't performing at at their best at all times there is very little chance for success.

Related to the previous point I would not agree that you can carry people who may be struggling, it's just not possible with the enrage timers and the number of pass/fail mechanics where failure by anyone results in a wipe. If you have carried someone through to completion, then arguably they could have done it on their own under ideal circumstance. You cannot carry someone who cannot do the mechanics without error.

To be honest, I would really like to do a couple of the early Savages just for a couple of the dyeable gear pieces, but being able to perform at that level just looks absolutely exhausting. The distance between taking the first step and the endpoint seems gargantuan, the time investment equally so, and the likelihood of success seems infinitesimal.

[GaiusDrakon]

Okay, enough already with the posts about the modding community and what not making tools to take down the high end content. Yes, WoW development ended up starting to build fights around the existence of these tools and it caused a ton of problems, but those tools are going to exist one way or another and SE isn't going to plant a program on your PC to scour it for third party tools, ever.

The whole reason that mods exist is to solve a difficulty curve problem that plagues these kind of games. If someone sticks a fancy reward that is unique and desirable to multiple different kinds of players at the end of some hard content that is meant for only a specific kind of player, people will make tools to circumvent the difficulty of the content.

The question that the devs should be asking themselves is this: Why are these other kinds of players that do not want hardship doing content that involves taking excessive amounts of time to complete, often at the sacrifice of newer content, for excessive numbers of weeks? This definitely didn't happen as often during Stormblood, but it is obvious that the dumbing down of jobs created a rather huge swath of middle ground that was not properly explored in the current content tier.

And FYI, I'm not even talking specifically about Dragonsong. This happens in savage as well with a lot of groups and it doesn't get publicized.

It's entirely possible to clear literally ALL content without third party tools.

When people use such tools it's for comfort and QoL.

[Zaene]

*Snipity snip*

I agree and understand 100%. The thing about savage that many people overlook is that it requires the time (a variable about depending on player skill) and patience (also a function of the required time) of a STATIC. That is to say, unless everyone in a hypothetical "learning" PUG you're looking to join is actually self-actualized and knows that it might take a good while for the least skillful member of the PUG to get the hang of the mechanics, you're looking at someone getting annoyed at the *time* taken and losing their *patience*, and leaving. Then the group implodes and you're left at square one.

So, I highly recommend finding some /genuinely/ good people, talking about what you want to do, trying your best, and you can clear everything with enough pulls.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

For one, I agree with the OP and others in this thread that there is no ramp-up in endgame difficulty in this game, at all.

So if I said there's no ramp up "at all" That was a faux pas on my part as I mean there is no "omg insane what the eff" ramp up from mechanics specifically. In group content the whole group has to be working together to a solution. I think the difficulty is maintained with Normal > EXes > Savage > Ultimate being the ascending difficulty duties.

Part of the point about Savage and Ultimate is the puzzle solving aspect of it. If you know what everything does or have a bunch of telegraphs there is less/no difficulty there. The reason I like this as a mechanic is because it compensates for the fact that players have gotten so skilled at the game that they can read telegraphs and mechanics that now the fights have gotten to buffs/debuffs/resolves in order to solve it.

One of the absolute best parts of initial raiding is going "Okay so this applies this buff and that does this but how do we resolve if X and Y happens." But this is made moot when party finder strats/video strats are made widely available. So again the "difficulty" is mitigated by the player spending the 3 seconds it takes to google/youtube the video and learn about the mechanics. Then it's just...seeing the fight live to adapt from there.

Let's take P1S as an example. P1S is your "intro to Savage" content. You know from Normal that he'll cleave one side and then the other, he just does it back to back now. Okay cool.

Then you have the flail a big heavy object vs the sickle, a light object. Through visible tells you know know that one will do X and the other will do Y. As soon as you die to it or see it you can go "okay now I know that Flail means get out and sickle means get in. Puzzle solved.

Shackles is a new mechanic, with visible telegraphs that tell you if you're resolving the mechanic properly or not. If four people have the purple together and no red are in the group/overlapped, it will resolve. This was a new mechanic that took trial and error to solve. Puzzle solved.

Temperence is much the same as normal. Now EVERYONE has to resolve buffs together, but it's the same mechanic just with one "no no square" inbetween everything but N/S.

Dart Board has the same mechanics but now you have to be on red and white. In/Out Right/Left Red/White three fields of combos that become easier to plan for as you practice.

Then four fold is the only thing where people shit the bed and that was a puzzle that has been solved by either flexing or timer strat. Looking at debuffs you know they have different timers meaning you lose track after a while but you KNOW that you're red or purple. As soon as you get the buff you know from the first shackles that you have to be out or in, the rest is agreeing on positioning. Puzzle solved.

P2S has the same mechanic with Predatory but you gotta move with channeling flow being the "new mechanic" as well as the triangle/squares move.

P3S has bird phase.

P4S has second phase which is new but also the capstone fight of the tier.

If none of these did new things they'd be boring, and the fact that people can clear day 1 and/or deconstruct mechanics day 1 shows that they're not insurmountable or impossible. It just takes trial and error and being okay with looking like a fool sometimes. that's why most pfs (are supposed to anyways) advertise what phase they're progging so that people can join in on the things they don't know how to handle and eventually get a good grip of them.

Additionally I would argue that overgearing any current savage is essentially moot due to the sheer number of instakill/instawipe mechanics, where most failures are not recoverable.

Gear helps a metric ton for tanks and healers. Your first day/week of savage with the gear you have vs after you've had a few weeks of ilevel jumps are night and day differences. Speeding up kills means less mechanics at the tail end, and means that if one person dies it's not instantly a wipe from lack of dps. If I heal with my SGE now at ilevel 600 vs when I first started or downsync it I guarantee you I will have more tight windows and less room for mistakes.

I'm speaking mostly to savage here as majority of EXes are baby level of difficulty in terms of dps checks and the rest is just not dying to mechanics, something that again you're GOING TO DO at first, we all do, but you die and then you learn and then you try again.

If you die in savage week 1, yes it's most likely a wipe, but my group can clear despite depths all the way up to P4S and that's just because we just got to P4S phase 2 and in 4 runs are at enrage for final phase due to hilariously blowing ourselves up in curtain call.

I may be wrong on that, but after watching guides/walkthroughs for a couple weeks trying to psych myself up, I'm even more hesitant because the amount of personal responsibility is such that if everyone isn't performing at at their best at all times there is very little chance for success.

I think the key thing here is that you and others (Including myself when I first started) are afraid of failure and/or possibly sucking/failing. I told my fc lead I'd never do raids because that shit seemed like too much for me to handle and for some people it MIGHT BE. I know after I first tried (NORMAL mind you) raiding I was like Okay cool what about exes and then I got good at those and moved to savages, I have not cleared ults yet haha.

No one said all this content had to exist for every type of player. It's called SAVAGE for a reason. I'm sorry that having personal responsibility for your own actions is a scary thing, but if you can't handle that, then you're not going to magically get better with addons until you die a few times and figure out what happens.

You cannot carry someone who cannot do the mechanics without error.

In Extreme content you absolutely can, and as this topic was encompassing all of endgame/"hard content" I felt it necessary to add that. To be fair people can buy clears and I've seen more than one person with an ultimate weapon where I had to go "how did you get this" in my head after watching how bad they were at basic mechanics.

To be honest, I would really like to do a couple of the early Savages just for a couple of the dyeable gear pieces, but being able to perform at that level just looks absolutely exhausting. The distance between taking the first step and the endpoint seems gargantuan, the time investment equally so, and the likelihood of success seems infinitesimal.

Anything prior to EW savage isn't even hard? With ilevels now you can basically laugh at most the first two tiers of SHB savage minus a few mechanics. I literally pf'd Titan for the first time a month ago and got my first clear of it in a few runs. That's not to say I'm good because I died a lot, but we absolutely can now (with more ilevels) clear with minimal effort.

So aside from EW content (which is current and SHOULD be difficult) the "early" savages aren't something you should see as insurmountable at all. Break this idea that savage is so much "harder" vs just being more "elaborate" and you'll start to get a better headspace about it. Just like when everyone started, the first time you see a stack marker you have no clue what the eff you're supposed to do. The first time you see those yellow triangles in Titan you have no clue what you're supposed to do. But then you die to it a few times and you learn.

When you stop being afraid of looking bad you can become good. "Sucking at sumthin' is the first step towards being sorta good at something."

The thing about savage that many people overlook is that it requires the time (a variable about depending on player skill) and patience (also a function of the required time) of a STATIC.

With the advent of discord it has become insanely easy to coordinate with people and find groups. On many discords/reddits/etc are constantly people advertising for fill ins and new statics forming. I did all of P1-P3s mostly through like 4 different groups depending on what day I had free. I coordinated my schedule and relegated it to ONLY two nights a week, and only for 2-3 hours a day. Sure I progged "slower" but I didn't have to go batshit on time expenditure to learn and I did it with a few different groups until I went to my original static group again later (I didn't want to play NIN anymore I wanted to play GNB and SGE so until GNB opened up there just wasn't a spot there for me).

That is to say, unless everyone in a hypothetical "learning" PUG you're looking to join is actually self-actualized and knows that it might take a good while for the least skillful member of the PUG to get the hang of the mechanics, you're looking at someone getting annoyed at the *time* taken and losing their *patience*, and leaving. Then the group implodes and you're left at square one.

Numerous groups say "fresh prog no salt" and other stuff and most of my learning in exes and stuff when I started was from joining said groups, knowing I wouldn't clear that day and just playing to see mechanics. Prog is prog baby.

So, I highly recommend finding some /genuinely/ good people, talking about what you want to do, trying your best, and you can clear everything with enough pulls.

Again, discord/reddit/etc all have people who are looking for people for groups, just bounce around to find one you like and/or a few you like and see where you land. You don't win by not playing.

In the end we can't all sit here and talk about how stressful and daunting and terrifying a task of the game is while simultaneously going "well it's just a game I should be able to clear it if I want to it's not a big deal." It's either an actual investment of time and effort for difficulty and rewards you with cool stuff, or it's a game that should be "nerfed" because anyone should be able to clear at any time regardless of what things exist in game to facilitate later clears (like ilevels and levels in general).