The difficulty curve in the game has... problems...

[Packetdancer]

So here is a question: Would anyone be opposed to having a system where savage is set up such that there is a savage, savage+, savage++, etc, where groups are required to complete the prior version to unlock the next version, and each step up makes the damage and healing checks tighter?

Conceptually, am I opposed to it? No. Options are great.

From a practical standpoint? Yes. The problem is that this game's combat system does not scale well; adjusting damage/health/attack potency, etc. tends to change the fight in non-trivial ways. The practical upshot of this being that I do not see SQEX just making "difficulty settings" for savage content; they'd almost certainly feel they had to make the three "difficulties" individually-tuned-and-tweaked fights.

Which means instead of 8 fights (four normal-mode raids, four savage) per tier, they'd need to do 20 (four normal mode fights, four savage fights tuned for "savage", four savage fights tuned for "savage+", four savage fights tuned for "savage++", four savage fights tuned for "savage+++"). That seems like a really good way to make the combat design team get spread thin and for fight design to suffer.

So, from a practical standpoint, unfortunately, I have objections.

However, as I've noted in this thread, I do not think that's actually necessary. Savage is within the capabilities of most players in this game; they just need to be willing to practice a bit -- and to die along the way. It's not content you'll clear immediately when you start doing it -- and it honestly shouldn't be, either.

My first tier was, as I noted, the second Eden tier. I started out and was very bad. But by the end of that tier, I'd gone from "I have no idea what I'm doing and I'm dying a lot" to "Hey, I've gotten much better at playing my job; I'm doing 4x the damage I was when I started this tier, and I'm clearing the fights!"

My second tier, I went from "Okay, I know I can do savage" to "Okay, I now can learn mechanics quickly enough that I'm serving as shot-caller for groups I do stuff with, and I'm serving as one of the advisor/teacher folks to the current incarnation of the rookie static in my FC." (Though, alas, due to Family Crisis Stuff I had to quit the tier for about four months at one point. RL trumps game content.)

This tier, my third, I went from "Okay, I now can learn mechanics quickly enough that I'm serving as shot-caller" to "I am pushing on in party finder beyond where my static is, learning what other folks are doing for mechanics, and using those to figure out the ideal strats for the static." And also running teaching parties in PF.

There are many, many raiders more skilled than me. I define myself as "more an asset than a liability"; I will do damage, keep the party healed/alive, and do mechanics callouts simultaneously -- my damage will be solidly average, but it'll be there, and I'll keep folks alive to the best of my ability while making sure via callouts that they're in the right spot.

Even as an average raider, savage is well within my capabilities... and I suspect they're within those of anyone posting in this thread lamenting savage's difficulty.

And it does get easier as you progress the tier, because gear does make a difference; short of "everyone needs to do one specific thing or the party wipes" mechanics, the problem with mechanics failures/death is not the deaths but the loss of DPS (and thus missing an enrage check). As you gear up within a tier, those enrage DPS checks become easier to make even if there have been deaths or damage downs; better gear won't save you from a one-shot due to messing up a mechanic, but better gear will absolutely make it possible to clear a fight with things going badly wrong and a party having multiple deaths.

If you truly believe savage is some unachievable goal of impossible difficulty? If that's the attitude you go into trying savage with, where any failure isn't a learning experience but rather proof that you'll never clear, then it'll be a self-fulfilling expectation; you'll make savage impossible for yourself.

But at this point... the thread has many folks who do actively raid savage -- in statics or in PF -- talking about the fact that while savage isn't something you get the hang of overnight and immediately clear, it's something you will get the hang of -- and faster than you think. If our own personal experiences from inside the savage tier -- and how we learned to do savage -- aren't enough to convince the folks who believe savage is an insurmountable challenge... I'm not sure there's much else any of us can say, or to contribute to the thread.

I hope those of you who still feel that way can get past that impression of it, and find that not only is savage achievable but also enjoyable; I'm not sure that, at this point, there's anything the raiders in this thread can say to help with that which hasn't already been said at least once.

And while I can't speak to the raid scene in other data centers, if you're in Primal? Folks on the Primal Raid Community discord often organize learning parties -- formally so in the first part of the tier, with schedules and signups and all, and informally so later when folks are like "I really would like practice on <fight> and to get farther" or whatnot in the requests channel. Plus, there's plenty of people who'll hop into learning parties in PF, or set them up.

I've given all the advice and encouragement I think I can, so I'm going to bow out; I've got a P3S learning party that I promised to run for some folks in about 15 minutes anyway.

[Issaella]

I tried to PF p2s his afternoon and got a party together - listed it as practice with no stipulations, at 590 ilvl. Took almost an hour to fill, after 4 wipes everyone left with 72minutes still left on the instance timer. We made it to Kampeos Harma on the last pull, and I just stood there in an empty instance wondering wtf happened. It was super helpful and informative and I look forward to doing it again. It did not feel remotely dispiriting or like a waste of 90 minutes of time just to have to start over from square-one, nope nope.

[IdowhatIwant]

I tried to PF p2s his afternoon and got a party together - listed it as practice with no stipulations, at 590 ilvl. Took almost an hour to fill, after 4 wipes everyone left with 72minutes still left on the instance timer. We made it to Kampeos Harma on the last pull, and I just stood there in an empty instance wondering wtf happened. It was super helpful and informative and I look forward to doing it again. It did not feel remotely dispiriting or like a waste of 90 minutes of time just to have to start over from square-one, nope nope.

Maybe it is not for you. You are also attempting to do this when most people are no longer messing with savage content.

[Issaella]

Maybe it is not for you. You are also attempting to do this when most people are no longer messing with savage content.

According to everyone in this thread anyone can do it at any time, at any gear level, without addons, without experience, exclusively through the PF and saying otherwise makes you wrong and/or a negative Nancy and/or a quitter, etc...

You just have to be willing to eat pavement ad infinitum and apparently put 3x as much time into getting a party together than you spend actually progressing. Having no deaths on the first Channeling Flow after only 3 pulls, and seeing Kampeos Harma after only 4 pulls seemed like progress to me... I was wrong apparently.

[Packetdancer]

i ran p1s when it released with my fc and for a month straight i didn't get a single piece of gear. largely in part to our static having multiple people who would run it before the rest of us because they wanted to prog faster.

See, this crosses a line. I'm fine with people trying to prog ahead of the static -- I actually do this, because as the shot-caller I want practice on mechanics we're not reliably seeing yet, so that I can know them well enough to call them.

But when my static still needed gear from P2S, even if we were progging P3S, I would not go practice P3S before our first raid night of the week; once we'd cleared P2S as a group, progging P3S was fine... but if we were close to a clear -- if we were working on the last mechanic or enrage -- I would hold off on that until after our last raid of the week. Similarly, when we were progging P4S but some people still needed gear from P3S, I would wait until we'd gotten P3S down for the week before practicing P4S in PF.

Screwing your static out of a chest because you're impatient is just not being a good team player.

Now, if you discuss it with your static, that's different. I really wanted to unlock DSR in order to try it with some friends who aren't in my static. My static, as a group, was working on the phase 1 enrage of P4S, while I'd been at Curtain Call in PF.

I discussed with my static, and they decided the chances of a static clear of P4S this week were very low, and so when my FC leader's static needed a sub healer on Tuesday, I stepped in (and thus got my P4S clear and DSR unlock).

Yes, it meant we wouldn't have had 2 chests if we had blasted through the rest of P4S as a static, but 1) we did not do so, and 2) I'd discussed it with the static ahead of time and made certain everyone was okay with it. And going forward, I'll do reclears of P4S after we've finished as a static for the week, if necessary.

According to everyone in this thread anyone can do it at any time, at any gear level, without addons, without experience, exclusively through the PF and saying otherwise makes you wrong and/or a negative Nancy and/or a quitter, etc...

No, what we've been speaking against is the idea that savage is somehow this impossible goal if you didn't clear it right away.

In fact, I've pointed out repeatedly that gear makes a difference, when folks said that gear progression through a tier made no difference. The fights are possible in the base required gear; they are, however, easier to do in better gear, since you'll have better DPS (and thus better chances to still clear even with deaths or damage downs).

PF can be frustrating! It is also entirely possible to clear a tier in PF.

I tried to PF p2s his afternoon and got a party together - listed it as practice with no stipulations, at 590 ilvl. Took almost an hour to fill, after 4 wipes everyone left with 72minutes still left on the instance timer. We made it to Kampeos Harma on the last pull, and I just stood there in an empty instance wondering wtf happened. It was super helpful and informative and I look forward to doing it again. It did not feel remotely dispiriting or like a waste of 90 minutes of time just to have to start over from square-one, nope nope.

Don't sell yourself short; that is progress!

Yeah, it's always unfortunate when someone leaves the instance -- and of course, as soon as one person does, everyone else has to -- so frequently it only takes one malcontent or impatient person to nuke a PF group.

But don't view it as starting over from square one. You have now had experience with all the mechanics leading up to Kampeos Harma, which means the next party you create or join can be a cleanup party for that mechanic. And then you'll get that much further in the fight, and find a new mechanic to work on for the next time.

Savage is not a "do the whole fight in one learning session" type of experience.

You do note you made the party "with no stipulations"; one bit of advice I'll offer is that it is good to set expectations. When I run learning parties, I tend to set a specific mechanic -- usually based on where whoever asked me to run one is in the fight.

For instance, today's P3S party I ran for some folks that just finished up was stated as "Adds cleanup and prog"; we didn't really get to prog beyond adds, but folks who joined to get practice were doing the mechanics up to adds much more cleanly -- and getting nearly through adds more consistently -- by the end of the party than at the beginning. And some folks were later in the fight, but since they knew what they were getting into from the party description, those who were further along (or had cleared) were either joining to help those who were at that point, or to practice mechanics they had done but wanted to practice to be smoother at executing.

When we disbanded, it wasn't because anyone left in a huff, but because someone had stated ahead-of-time "Just as a note, I have to go in half an hour to do some stuff."

It helps to set expectations; if someone sees a "practice" and thinks it means 'practice the whole fight', they may be more likely to leave in a huff if it proves to be working on a specific earlier mechanic. And yeah, if a party says it's for a specific mechanic and people never make it there, it can get frustrating and someone might leave; that's part of the PF experience.

If you prefer a more consistent group than the PF grab-bag, I will once again recommend looking on /r/FFXIVRECRUITMENT or somewhere similar for a static. There are still some statics forming even now, because there are people only just getting to endgame and still wanting to do savage.

[Issaella]

*snip*

It just feels like an enormous amount of effort to put in for 18min of progress. That's it, 4 pulls, 18min of playing the raid, I looked at the instance timer in disbelief when everyone just ~poofed~ without a word. And now all I can really look forward to is another however long to form/join a party with the requisite progress just to have it implode again in less than 20 minutes. It's not exactly like the PF is overflowing with p2s prog groups.

I'm not saying I wont. I'm saying g** damn that is really disheartening... Like the end point after that doesn't feel any closer.

[Issaella]

I forced myself to join another prog at Harma with zero hope of getting any farther. Progged for about an hour before someone had to leave. I managed not to wipe us and get the mechanic right after like 5 tries on Harma. Actually cleared Overflow and the second Overflow easier than Harma. Saw enrage once near the end (~25%) before we disbanded. I died, like a lot, a lot more than everyone else it seemed like, and still am clearly the weakest link.

But, it may be, minutely possible that I can eventually clear it. Enrage once at 25% is a long a** way from a clear, but it might not be impossible. It's still really f'ing hard though and the game does absolutely nothing to prepare you for it. And I'd be willing to put a large wager that I just lucked into a unicorn group that felt sorry enough not to kick me bringing paper bag tier DPS.

I'll keep trying I guess. I will withold my judgement on the feasibility until I actually get a clear though. I think there is an above even chance I end up in the old folks home (ie - the perpetual "seen enrage a bunch" groups, but never get a clear).

[IdowhatIwant]

I forced myself to join another prog at Harma with zero hope of getting any farther. Progged for about an hour before someone had to leave. I managed not to wipe us and get the mechanic right after like 5 tries on Harma. Actually cleared Overflow and the second Overflow easier than Harma. Saw enrage once near the end (~25%) before we disbanded. I died, like a lot, a lot more than everyone else it seemed like, and still am clearly the weakest link.

But, it may be, minutely possible that I can eventually clear it. Enrage once at 25% is a long ass way from a clear, but it might not be impossible. It's still really f'ing hard though and the game does absolutely nothign to prepare you for it. And I'd be willing to put a large wager that I just lucked into a unicorn group that felt sorry enough not to kick me bringing paper bag tier DPS.

I'll keep trying I guess. I will withold my judgement on the feasibility until I actually get a clear though. I think there is an above even chance I end up in the old folks home (ie - the perpetual "seen enrage a bunch" groups, but never get a clear).

It sadly doesn't look like you have any logs. I was going to offer some pointers but I don't know what I am working with. I did my savage stuff as Mch, and I like to think I do well as Mch.

Yeah 25% is pretty high for enrage. How ever I am pretty sure when I first saw enrage my group had it pretty high as well but that is what prog is you typically aren't going to clear. If you don't feel comfortable with the mechanics to potentially clear (able to ideally go through the fight with out dying or killing some one) you may want to practice more before that push to clear.

[Issaella]

It sadly doesn't look like you have any logs...

Because they are hidden and will remain so. I don't need my shameful bottomdweller grey parses posted for all to see. I didn't even know I had any (or even thought about it) until someone said something a while back and I had to scramble to figure out how to get rid of them. There is noting to see there but disappointment and humiliation.

[Packetdancer]

I forced myself to join another prog at Harma with zero hope of getting any farther. Progged for about an hour before someone had to leave. I managed not to wipe us and get the mechanic right after like 5 tries on Harma. Actually cleared Overflow and the second Overflow easier than Harma. Saw enrage once near the end (~25%) before we disbanded. I died, like a lot, a lot more than everyone else it seemed like, and still am clearly the weakest link.

If you feel like you died more than others... I mean, that was fresh prog for you. Chances are that others had seen the other mechanics before, at least a few times. It's very, very easy to get obliterated when a mechanic is new to you and you're focused on matching what you see on-screen to the description you've seen elsewhere.

(I will also note that if you're feeling self-conscious, you may also have thought you died more times relative to others than you did; especially if you're not the healer, it's easy to not really register someone else dying if you're focused very specifically on making sure you pick up the mechanics.)

That's one reason I do prog ahead of my static within a fight, by spending time in PF. I know that even if I look at a video or a Toolbox or whatever, I personally don't have a mechanic really click for me until I've seen it a few times. But once it does click, I know I can call it (and answer questions about it) when my static gets there.

I will also note that there's almost no way one person alone is responsible for missing enrage by 25%, so you might be judging yourself a little harshly there. Sure, it's worth thinking about your DPS. But focus first on the mechanics; better to do some DPS and execute mechanics correctly than to do more DPS but die.

(Admittedly, the ideal is doing more DPS and not dying, but even the best raiders rarely focus on the two at the same time. You focus on the "not dying" so that the fight becomes smoother to perform, then you focus on the "more DPS" to beat the enrage check.)

But, it may be, minutely possible that I can eventually clear it. Enrage once at 25% is a long a** way from a clear, but it might not be impossible. It's still really f'ing hard though and the game does absolutely nothing to prepare you for it. And I'd be willing to put a large wager that I just lucked into a unicorn group that felt sorry enough not to kick me bringing paper bag tier DPS.

Honestly, it is likely you will clear it. You say that you think the fight is beyond you... but I'm going to point out that from what you've said, you've been in a grand total of... what, two parties for P2S? And you've already seen enrage. That is a great deal better than many people do.

Yes, granted, you probably have other people in there who had cleared the fight before, and who are very well-geared. And even those who haven't cleared the fight can be well-geared by now, given the Aglaia coins to upgrade Radiant gear. Still, to be able to get through to enrage -- even enrage at 25% -- ain't nothing, as far as progress goes. It means you've seen the whole fight! It's less "learning the fight" now, and more "getting practice at doing the mechanics more smoothly".

If you really find yourself stuck... the Discord server for the FFXIV subreddit has datacenter-specific recruiting channels, and there is likely a raid community Discord for Aether. For instance, Primal has the Primal Raid Community server (or PRC), where you can find a static or ask for a learning party to be put together or whatever, in a more active and collaborative way (including voice chat if needed) than just relying on party finder; I have little doubt that a similar server is out there for Aether.

(As I play predominantly on Primal -- and periodically on Crystal a little bit with friends over there -- Aether is not a datacenter I have any familiarity with the raid resources for, so I'm afraid I don't know where precisely to point you. The subreddit's Discord will have Aether-specific channels, though, and someone there may be able to help more directly.)