The difficulty curve in the game has... problems...

[Colt47]

The mods' arms race you talk about only happened in WoD when by the last raid tier, it was required to have addons due to how complex the fight had become, they then decided to simplify future fights while at the same time reducing what people could do with add-ons. On top of that, WoW don't have the same kind of ''normal'' mode FFXIV have. You simply need to know what skill does and you can't expect some sort of communication and leadership in PUG group. People don't want to hop on coms with stranger just so they can clear Shiva Extreme or something of the like.

Well, yes that is the point. On NA servers the lack of leadership in PF content is a constant problem and people don't want to hop into communications if they don't need to for all sorts of reasons, which is why statics ended up being formed. However, that's not the problem with the difficulty curve. The difficulty curve is related to hidden game design, where developers introduce mechanics that are meant to make up for the fact that we as players do not possess all of our senses in the game. The reason they flash the attack zones for enemies is because we don't have the ability to predict where an attack can land based purely on the enemy, and due to flashy effects and visuals from our own attacks, basing the direction and nature of attacks on what the enemy is doing via motion is nearly impossible, hence why many bosses get "bigger" than the player characters since they have to be seen over spell effects and other characters.

This leads to the second visual clue which is applying a name to an ability and a cast bar where we have time to look at the name of the ability. Once the attack goes off, you then mentally connect the dots to the name of the ability and the effect it has on the arena.

Now in the game itself, they obviously don't show the area of effect anymore in savage the same way they do in normal content, so they attempt to bridge this via the Extreme fights and Unreal content, where the attack area gets flashed for a short time, but you have to rely more on the knowledge of what the attack is and what the visual queue is outside of orange flashy floor markings.

This would work fine... if EX fights were not optional content that could be skipped and people had to clear them to continue in the savage tier, but because they are there is a gap between savage and normal content. Since the skill floor got raised by greatly simplifying the abilities that players use on characters it also means that EX fights become more trivial and now the new baseline is the base savage tier, which lacks the visual transition that the EX fights were supposed to originally provide.

The other issue is the crazy amount of ramping that happens in difficulty going from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fights in savage. The game design team can't do anything about social issues or problems with finding groups, but content like savage should be doable in about two and a half months to clear for a group going at least 3 days a week. Going from PF that definitely did not happen, with many groups getting completely walled on p3s for a month at least. A lot of this is due to the reliance of the fights on completely removing certain design elements meant to support players in learning, and the other half is from using mechanics that actively punish players far too harshly for failure. Yes, the fight should only be completed if people can stay alive through it while keeping dps up, but no one can progress on a fight if the fight ends with one person dying to a mechanic only 5 minutes into a fight, since no one can see the later mechanics to even begin learning the fight.

As a person who is leading a static and learning this content, savage would be completely impossible for 90% of the players doing savage without having streamers and other folks with far more time writing out lesson plans, taking notes, and doing all the same tasks as a paid instructor at an educational institution.

Also going to point out that having rewards that are effectively upgraded versions of the normal raid gear creates the sense that savage is a progression of the normal raids, which it is not. If savage mode is supposed to be a mode for those that want a challenge, why would you want to have people who are interested in completion go out of their way to do it, considering that the matching weapon for the armor set is only available in the savage version?

[Issaella]

I have to ask: are you really concerned about the difficulty increase from Ex to Savage or are you concerned that PF will hold you back because you deem it too unreliable for you to make progress?

It it that PF is so unreliable I don't think there is much if any chance of completing it at all even if I can manage the mechanics because I then have to find a group of 7 other people who can perform at that level. The likelihood of achieving that with random assemblages of people from PF seems unlikely to the extreme. Especially when I've never even touched Savage content before.

Best if you are your party leader, you create the party and set x standard whether is be prog for a certain mechanic or a clear group or what ever. If some one it holding you back simply replace them.

Seem my above point. I have zero experience in Savage content. How would I possibly have enough knowledge/experience to lead a prog party? Let alone one that has any chance of completion?

Also going to point out that having rewards that are effectively upgraded versions of the normal raid gear creates the sense that savage is a progression of the normal raids, which it is not. If savage mode is supposed to be a mode for those that want a challenge, why would you want to have people who are interested in completion go out of their way to do it, considering that the matching weapon for the armor set is only available in the savage version?

This is essentially the only reason I'm even interested in doing it, there are two skins in p2s I want the dyeable versions of, that's it. And the only way to get them is to slam my head against a wall for untold hours with slim hope of even getting a clear let along getting lucky enough for a coffer or 6/12 clears for tokens. You are putting two disparate groups together with vastly different skills and motivation into the same content with no other way to obtain the rewards. I remember reading another thread a while back with a statement related to chasing a carrot on a stick only a lot of people will throw away hours and hours and never get any kind of reward (carrot) at all. And by gating the dyeable gear behind Savages the design is telling you "hey you got normal down now move to savage".

The other issue is the crazy amount of ramping that happens in difficulty going from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fights in savage. The game design team can't do anything about social issues or problems with finding groups, but content like savage should be doable in about two and a half months to clear for a group going at least 3 days a week. Going from PF that definitely did not happen... Yes, the fight should only be completed if people can stay alive through it while keeping dps up, but no one can progress on a fight if the fight ends with one person dying to a mechanic only 5 minutes into a fight, since no one can see the later mechanics to even begin learning the fight.

And this is the point I and other have been making in this whole thread that a lot of people don't seem to grasp. If you have zero experience with Savage then the difficulty is so high above any previous content as to feel like there is no starting point that will eventually lead to completion. And there is no gradual lessening of difficulty over the life of the current tier that would conceivably allow people who are behind/late to start to catch up. You are stuck starting at the beginning with only other people who are similarly behind/less experienced to bash your head against a wall until the next tier comes out and there is no one doing the content at all.

[KariTheFox]

Seem my above point. I have zero experience in Savage content. How would I possibly have enough knowledge/experience to lead a prog party? Let alone one that has any chance of completion?

Okay, here's what you do. Make a learning/prog PF, and write down the specific mechanic or phase you want to work on - and then also write "0-1 chest, experienced players welcome", and make sure to uncheck the "Weekly Reward Unclaimed" box when you make the PF. Now the player pool that can join the PF won't just be people who haven't cleared the fight yet, but also experienced raiders who are bored and happy to teach/help learn a fight.

And this is the point I and other have been making in this whole thread that a lot of people don't seem to grasp. If you have zero experience with Savage then the difficulty is so high above any previous content as to feel like there is no starting point that will eventually lead to completion. And there is no gradual lessening of difficulty over the life of the current tier that would conceivably allow people who are behind/late to start to catch up. You are stuck starting at the beginning with only other people who are similarly behind/less experienced to bash your head against a wall until the next tier comes out and there is no one doing the content at all.

It's true that the curve is a bit wonky in places (though I think the step from Hydaelyn EX to P1S is actually pretty smooth), nobody starts out being experienced with savage content. The only way to learn the fights is to practice them until you're familiar with them. Even in a group that is doing poorly, you can make sure to focus on yourself and your own performance. Everyone except you died to one mechanic? Try to stay alive long enough to see the next one and execute whatever it needs of you.

[Issaella]

It's true that the curve is a bit wonky in places (though I think the step from Hydaelyn EX to P1S is actually pretty smooth), nobody starts out being experienced with savage content.

Literally anyone who has done any previous Savage content before is lightyears ahead of people just starting. This is where the problem/disconnect fundamentally lies IMO. Not only do you need to wrap your brain around the mechanics of a specific raid boss you first have to wrap your brain around how Savages in general work and how completely unforgiving they are to even a single mistake. All this with no starting point of knowledge and no method of gaining it except constant and repeated failure. You can't lower the learning curve with gear. You can't lower it with addons without risking your account. You can't lower it really with more experienced player because you have no frame of reference to build on. Even joining a Savage prog you are expected to have a baseline of knowledge and experience that there is really no way to obtain without having done Savage before. Anyone who is trying to get into Savage content now is the weakest link in any prog party, period.

Honestly, I don't begrudge people just starting Savage the crutch that some of those addons provide, at least it would give a frame of reference and a baseline of competence that might make them more confident moving forward. I sometimes feel it would be a lot easier to just use them for the clear, get what I want, and then be done with it so I can go back to doing other things. But alas, I'm not risking my 4k+ hours of progress on a arbitrarily enforced ToS violation.

[LianaThorne]

Literally anyone who has done any previous Savage content before is lightyears ahead of people just starting. This is where the problem/disconnect fundamentally lies IMO. Not only do you need to wrap your brain around the mechanics of a specific raid boss you first have to wrap your brain around how Savages in general work and how completely unforgiving they are to even a single mistake. All this with no starting point of knowledge and no method of gaining it except constant and repeated failure. You can't lower the learning curve with gear. You can't lower it with addons without risking your account. You can't lower it really with more experienced player because you have no frame of reference to build on. Even joining a Savage prog you are expected to have a baseline of knowledge and experience that there is really no way to obtain without having done Savage before. Anyone who is trying to get into Savage content now is the weakest link in any prog party, period.

Honestly, I don't begrudge people just starting Savage the crutch that some of those addons provide, at least it would give a frame of reference and a baseline of competence that might make them more confident moving forward. I sometimes feel it would be a lot easier to just use them for the clear, get what I want, and then be done with it so I can go back to doing other things. But alas, I'm not risking my 4k+ hours of progress on a arbitrarily enforced ToS violation.

For someone who's never done savage you're talking a lot like you have.

You have people telling you it's possible and has been done. Let go of your fear and actually try it instead of holding on to a tight grip of assumptions. Fresh progs exist and even blind progs where knowledge of the fight prior isnt even required. Again, give it a try instead of arguing with people who have actually done it. Thanks.

[Rilifane]

snip

There is nothing to lead in any PF.
Creating a party doesn't mean you have to do call outs, answer questions, be ahead with mechanics, offer advice and corrections, provide macro or markers or anything of that sort. All it means is that you can set the requirements as you desire (ilvl, classes, other options, description) and have the option to kick someone if they don't perform according to the standards you set.
Many people creating a practice party in PF don't even have markers or a macro or any clue about what's going on. They just created the party, that's it. And nobody expects anything from them.
You just set it to "practice", uncheck "Duty Complete" and "Duty Complete (Weekly Reward Unclaimed)" as these two options prevent people without a clear from joining, add "helpers welcome" and "bring macro/ markers" if you don't have but want them and you're done.
Once you're confident with certain mechanics you add "from mechanic X onwards" next time you set up PF.

All these misconceptions you have come from a lack of experience but clinging to them won't help you. Why not believe people that are telling you otherwise from experience and be glad that it's not nearly as gloomy as you thought it to be and give it a go?
I created plenty of parties during my 1st tier in ShB, it's not complicated and nothing was expected from me because creating a party doesn't mean anything. And there are plenty of "7 other people" out there who perform the mechanics just fine.

And I agree with Kari that the difficulty curve from Hydaelyn (and Endsinger) Ex into p1s is really smooth. The biggest difference between those is that the dps check for p1s would be a bit tighter but this late into the tier almost everyone is at least 590 from augmented crafted and helpers are usually BiS. So not much to worry about on that front. There definitely IS a lessening of the difficulty throughout the tier, both through better gear and more helpers.

Right now you're the only one holding yourself back by stubbornly clinging to the belief that it's hopeless, that it's all pointless "bashing your head against a wall", unfair increase in difficulty and so on.
Not the game, not PF, not the difficulty, not the difficulty curve.

I get it, you're only after dyeable glam and seem upset that you have to tackle endgame raiding for it. But you are entirely capable of getting it. Yes, this late into the tier. In PF.
Is it worth it? That's your choice to make.

[Issaella]

There is nothing to lead in any PF.
Creating a party doesn't mean you have to do call outs, answer questions, be ahead with mechanics, offer advice and corrections, provide macro or markers or anything of that sort. All it means is that you can set the requirements as you desire (ilvl, classes, other options, description) and have the option to kick someone if they don't perform according to the standards you set.
Many people creating a practice party in PF don't even have markers or a macro or any clue about what's going on. They just created the party, that's it. And nobody expects anything from them.
You just set it to "practice", uncheck "Duty Complete" and "Duty Complete (Weekly Reward Unclaimed)" as these two options prevent people without a clear from joining, add "helpers welcome" and "bring macro/ markers" if you don't have but want them and you're done.
Once you're confident with certain mechanics you add "from mechanic X onwards" next time you set up PF.

I'm going to be frank, why would anyone join a party like that? It would have zero chance of success or progressing at all? It's not only wrangling a group of cats, but it's essentially say "f' it let the cats run around and do whatever they want". If I were going to join a PF group for prog for p2s then I wouldn't touch a group like that with a ten foot pole. It would in no way assist me in gaining experience or knowledge. I would expect that someone leading a group would at least have some idea what is going on and how to help with issues beyond just hoping more experienced people can join and sort it out.

All these misconceptions you have come from a lack of experience but clinging to them won't help you. Why not believe people that are telling you otherwise from experience and be glad that it's not nearly as gloomy as you thought it to be and give it a go?
I created plenty of parties during my 1st tier in ShB, it's not complicated and nothing was expected from me because creating a party doesn't mean anything. And there are plenty of "7 other people" out there who perform the mechanics just fine.

My experience PuGing Unreal on my alt would beg to differ with you. Having it on farm on my main and then trying to PuG it exclusively in Duty Complete reclear/retell parties on my alt is frequently infuriating. And that is only in groups that everyone has ostensibly cleared the encounter before. That is really what I'm basing a lot of my trepidation on truthfully. If I can't even expect baseline competence from people that have cleared something not to make everything miserable/harder than it has to be, then what hope do I have for Savage? And I am by no means exempting myself, who has no experience at all. And compared to Unreal/Ex the margin for error might as well be zero.

[KariTheFox]

I'm going to be frank, why would anyone join a party like that?

Because, if you set it up to include people who have already gotten thier weekly clears, you will draw from experienced raiders who actually enjoy teaching the fights, probably cleared them all tuesday night, and are bored out of thier minds because their group isn't progging Ultimate that night.

I personally know a few highly skilled raiders who spend s lot of thier time teaching fights that they cleared week one, simply because they find it fun to teach people.

[Issaella]

Because, if you set it up to include people who have already gotten thier weekly clears, you will draw from experienced raiders who actually enjoy teaching the fights, probably cleared them all tuesday night, and are bored out of thier minds because their group isn't progging Ultimate that night.

I personally know a few highly skilled raiders who spend s lot of thier time teaching fights that they cleared week one, simply because they find it fun to teach people.

I guess this is another fundamental disconnect as to what PF is supposed to be in this game. Coming from WoW if you list a PuG raid you are expected to lead that raid. At the bare minimum you should have the experience to know most of the fight you are trying to PuG and tell people what they should be doing if needed. Listing something and then expecting others to pick up the slack feels extremely selfish to me and wouldn't have much chance of sucess in my experience. I would expect the same thing in any group that I would join, let alone volunteer to lead.

And as a side note, one of the things that absolutely kills me about Savage is that if you have people who are experienced then you are giving up half or all of your chance at a reward. The game literally penalizes you for including people in the group who have cleared. So you either have to eat pavement in hopes of getting a clear with similarly inexperienced people or call in assistance (if you even know anyone who can) and cut your chance of reward in half or lose it completely. What kind of sense is that?

[Colt47]

I guess this is another fundamental disconnect as to what PF is supposed to be in this game. Coming from WoW if you list a PuG raid you are expected to lead that raid. At the bare minimum you should have the experience to know most of the fight you are trying to PuG and tell people what they should be doing if needed. Listing something and then expecting others to pick up the slack feels extremely selfish to me and wouldn't have much chance of sucess in my experience. I would expect the same thing in any group that I would join, let alone volunteer to lead.

And as a side note, one of the things that absolutely kills me about Savage is that if you have people who are experienced then you are giving up half or all of your chance at a reward. The game literally penalizes you for including people in the group who have cleared. So you either have to eat pavement in hopes of getting a clear with similarly inexperienced people or call in assistance (if you even know anyone who can) and cut your chance of reward in half or lose it completely. What kind of sense is that?

Yeah, this has been a problem for a while now. Obviously the dev team or the team lead over there doesn't think so but the way the loot system works contributes to the problems over on the NA servers at the very least. If you join a static for example you basically give your soul to that group and can't even help another group without stepping on the toes of both thanks to the system. If the loot was a personal lockout system things would improve immensely.

I don't remember even why they made the system the way they did or if they ever bothered to say anything about it, but I've assumed that they originally put it in place to discourage groups selling clears to others. It doesn't really do that and mostly just makes this a whole lot more frustrating and inflexible in terms of when and with whom people do savage with.