The difficulty curve in the game has... problems...

[Xlantaa]

That's not true. You can clear anything without add-ons, including ultimates. If you need add-ons to clear the duties, then consoles players wouldn't be able to clear anything.

[Issaella]

I mean, I don't think the only people doing savage are people who can't clear. I personally know a fair few high end players who enjoy just teaching fights to players who haven't cleared them before.

I'd suggest putting up a 1-0 chest learning party on PF and see how many bored raiders you get bites from.

I see the same ones up night after night in the PF that never even come close to filling. The only ones that ever fill are the Duty Complete/Reclear groups. I mean, that's anecdotal, but I've been keeping an eye on the PF for a couple weeks now and I don't think I've ever seen anything advertised like that and the prog groups that do get advertised rarely fill in less than an hour before just imploding and the listing disappearing.

Some mechanics are memes in PF like p3s add phase or p4s Pinax but that doesn't mean you'll be hitting a wall and be unable to clear until next expansion. You'll wipe to it a couple of times, someone may leave or get replaced and try again but it's rare to see a party not getting past the meme mechanic within the evening.
If you are interested in raiding there's nothing except your own mindset keeping you from doing it. Saying that you need a static, that you'll be helpless to progress if PF isn't at their best game, that you'll spend weeks on a boss for little to no reward is simply wrong and unnecessary doom and gloom. And definitely not fair to all the people out there constantly teaching and helping with clears or people that simply started later but are quite capable of learning.

A couple things on this. One mechanic cleared per night, that's all you can expect? That just seems absurd to me, there are 8-10 mechanics in every one of these raid bosses. So that's literally tens of hours for 1 clear, best case scenario. So it just seems like progging it in PF will just repeat in the same failures over and over from night to night due to the lack of uniformity between groups with people who can't complete previous mechanics.

And again, anecdotally I have never really seen anything like what you guys are claiming being advertised in the PF. All I ever see is on one end of the spectrum Duty Complete/Reclear parties and on the other are half-full practice/prog parties that either never fill, or just keep getting relisted after half an hour minus 2-3 people from the previous run.

I don't have a uniform set of time I can set aside on a weekly basis to even attempt to join a static and it just seems like trying to prog any of the current Savages when I do have a couple hours to spare will just be an exercise in frustration. The chance of completion seems entirely based on getting lucky with a unicorn comp or a prog that manages to get everything right. How much time burned trying to find a group capable of progressing at all from one night to the next seems like it is an inordinate time sink.

[LianaThorne]

I see the same ones up night after night in the PF that never even come close to filling. The only ones that ever fill are the Duty Complete/Reclear groups. I mean, that's anecdotal, but I've been keeping an eye on the PF for a couple weeks now and I don't think I've ever seen anything advertised like that and the prog groups that do get advertised rarely fill in less than an hour before just imploding and the listing disappearing.



A couple things on this. One mechanic cleared per night, that's all you can expect? That just seems absurd to me, there are 8-10 mechanics in every one of these raid bosses. So that's literally tens of hours for 1 clear, best case scenario. So it just seems like progging it in PF will just repeat in the same failures over and over from night to night due to the lack of uniformity between groups with people who can't complete previous mechanics.

And again, anecdotally I have never really seen anything like what you guys are claiming being advertised in the PF. All I ever see is on one end of the spectrum Duty Complete/Reclear parties and on the other are half-full practice/prog parties that either never fill, or just keep getting relisted after half an hour minus 2-3 people from the previous run.

I don't have a uniform set of time I can set aside on a weekly basis to even attempt to join a static and it just seems like trying to prog any of the current Savages when I do have a couple hours to spare will just be an exercise in frustration. The chance of completion seems entirely based on getting lucky with a unicorn comp or a prog that manages to get everything right. How much time burned trying to find a group capable of progressing at all from one night to the next seems like it is an inordinate time sink.

You can prog through PF. Yeah it'll come with headaches, but it's not impossible. My old FC lead progged the entire tier that way, just have to be patient with people if you actually want your clears or host your own parties if you can't find something that fits where you're at prog wise. If it's worth it to you, stick it out.

[IdowhatIwant]

I see the same ones up night after night in the PF that never even come close to filling. The only ones that ever fill are the Duty Complete/Reclear groups. I mean, that's anecdotal, but I've been keeping an eye on the PF for a couple weeks now and I don't think I've ever seen anything advertised like that and the prog groups that do get advertised rarely fill in less than an hour before just imploding and the listing disappearing.

When I was playing I would sometimes go and try to help people with P1S and P2S. I probably won't do it anymore cause a lot of the players I was going out of my way to help were very rude, and would get an attitude with me when I would try to explain mechanics to them.

A couple things on this. One mechanic cleared per night, that's all you can expect? That just seems absurd to me, there are 8-10 mechanics in every one of these raid bosses. So that's literally tens of hours for 1 clear, best case scenario. So it just seems like progging it in PF will just repeat in the same failures over and over from night to night due to the lack of uniformity between groups with people who can't complete previous mechanics.

And again, anecdotally I have never really seen anything like what you guys are claiming being advertised in the PF. All I ever see is on one end of the spectrum Duty Complete/Reclear parties and on the other are half-full practice/prog parties that either never fill, or just keep getting relisted after half an hour minus 2-3 people from the previous run.

I don't have a uniform set of time I can set aside on a weekly basis to even attempt to join a static and it just seems like trying to prog any of the current Savages when I do have a couple hours to spare will just be an exercise in frustration. The chance of completion seems entirely based on getting lucky with a unicorn comp or a prog that manages to get everything right. How much time burned trying to find a group capable of progressing at all from one night to the next seems like it is an inordinate time sink.

Best if you are your party leader, you create the party and set x standard whether is be prog for a certain mechanic or a clear group or what ever. If some one it holding you back simply replace them.
Personally I usually do all my progs blind with a friend so we will set up a PF and go at it blind for a night. Next day we will go ahead and maybe look up a guide (usually we already know the mechanics and don't need to) and we start working on a clear. It can take longer than having a static group, but that is why you are the party leader and replace people as needed.

[Magikazam]

This is absolutely false. Will and dedication is important but what is needed to get through content is will, dedication, and proper Leadership / teamwork.

Leadership and guidance is something that is missing from savage that is provided in-game during normal content through visual queues in the fights, which in combination with zero enrage timers enables that content to be playable by just about all people who play this game. But the issue is that the second someone steps into doing savage or extreme trials, the guidance is taken away and enrage timers are applied. Mods that were developed in World of Warcraft were designed to fill the gap of missing guidance and enabled groups with poor leadership and learning skills to tackle content they otherwise would be unable to handle, which then lead to an arms race between the devs and the community at large where they started making content to meet some arbitrary difficulty wall for player retention.

The mods' arms race you talk about only happened in WoD when by the last raid tier, it was required to have addons due to how complex the fight had become, they then decided to simplify future fights while at the same time reducing what people could do with add-ons. On top of that, WoW don't have the same kind of ''normal'' mode FFXIV have. You simply need to know what skill does and you can't expect some sort of communication and leadership in PUG group. People don't want to hop on coms with stranger just so they can clear Shiva Extreme or something of the like.

[Rilifane]

A couple things on this. One mechanic cleared per night, that's all you can expect? That just seems absurd to me, there are 8-10 mechanics in every one of these raid bosses. So that's literally tens of hours for 1 clear, best case scenario. So it just seems like progging it in PF will just repeat in the same failures over and over from night to night due to the lack of uniformity between groups with people who can't complete previous mechanics.

And again, anecdotally I have never really seen anything like what you guys are claiming being advertised in the PF. All I ever see is on one end of the spectrum Duty Complete/Reclear parties and on the other are half-full practice/prog parties that either never fill, or just keep getting relisted after half an hour minus 2-3 people from the previous run.

I don't have a uniform set of time I can set aside on a weekly basis to even attempt to join a static and it just seems like trying to prog any of the current Savages when I do have a couple hours to spare will just be an exercise in frustration. The chance of completion seems entirely based on getting lucky with a unicorn comp or a prog that manages to get everything right. How much time burned trying to find a group capable of progressing at all from one night to the next seems like it is an inordinate time sink.

First off: I never said anywhere that you'll only be able to one mechanic per evening.
Right now you're so caught up in your belief that Savage is an insurmountable task and that it's hopeless trying to clear it in PF that you're interpreting everything that way.
What I said is that there are some meme mechanics in PF because they tend to hold up groups a bit longer and that I rarely see a PF NOT getting past it within the evening. I never said that it's the ONLY mechanic you'll see within the evening once past it nor have I said that every PF is like that.

You're still making a lot of assumptions about something you haven't actively tried.
Anecdotally I spent 4 tiers (all 3 ShB tiers and the current EW tier) PFing quite a bit and not just reading PF descriptions or checking names and every "helpers welcome" party usually had 2-3 helpers minimum. Sometimes it was only one person still needing the clear and the rest were helpers. The parties don't have "We're a bunch of pros that will help you learn this fight and teach you everything" in their description, they are regular "practice" parties with a "helpers welcome" in the description in addition to things like "bring macro" or "we have markers" or "R1 flex". Perhaps that is the reason why you missed it.
Sometimes people leave and that is normal. PF is a hop on/ hop off thing precisely for people like you that can't set aside a fixed amount of time every week on the same days; some people only have an hour, some people want to progress faster, others notice that they aren't as sure with mechanics as they thought and leave.
You are also free to make your own party, set whichever mechanical requirement you want (e.g. "numbers onwards") and therefor setting the prog speed, welcome helpers and replace people you feel are holding you back. If you're only looking at parties from others you'll have to take what you get and may need to deal with someone that keeps failing something not getting replaced.

As it is endgame content, it's not unreasonable to spent 10 hours and more on a boss, depending on thr turn. P1s and p2s can be cleared within one evening respectively if you have a couple of helpers that know what they're doing; seen that countless times during all tiers I PF'ed. You'll spend longer on p3s because add phase and FoF tends to hold up PF a bit longer. And obviously even longer on p4s as that's the final boss of the tier.
If that is too long for you then yes, I suppose the time spent/ reward is not to your liking - doesn't make it bad, just your preference of generally wanting to get things a little faster than that. But considering it is the 2nd highest difficulty of any content in the entire game, it's reasonable.

I have to ask: are you really concerned about the difficulty increase from Ex to Savage or are you concerned that PF will hold you back because you deem it too unreliable for you to make progress?

[Colt47]

The mods' arms race you talk about only happened in WoD when by the last raid tier, it was required to have addons due to how complex the fight had become, they then decided to simplify future fights while at the same time reducing what people could do with add-ons. On top of that, WoW don't have the same kind of ''normal'' mode FFXIV have. You simply need to know what skill does and you can't expect some sort of communication and leadership in PUG group. People don't want to hop on coms with stranger just so they can clear Shiva Extreme or something of the like.

Well, yes that is the point. On NA servers the lack of leadership in PF content is a constant problem and people don't want to hop into communications if they don't need to for all sorts of reasons, which is why statics ended up being formed. However, that's not the problem with the difficulty curve. The difficulty curve is related to hidden game design, where developers introduce mechanics that are meant to make up for the fact that we as players do not possess all of our senses in the game. The reason they flash the attack zones for enemies is because we don't have the ability to predict where an attack can land based purely on the enemy, and due to flashy effects and visuals from our own attacks, basing the direction and nature of attacks on what the enemy is doing via motion is nearly impossible, hence why many bosses get "bigger" than the player characters since they have to be seen over spell effects and other characters.

This leads to the second visual clue which is applying a name to an ability and a cast bar where we have time to look at the name of the ability. Once the attack goes off, you then mentally connect the dots to the name of the ability and the effect it has on the arena.

Now in the game itself, they obviously don't show the area of effect anymore in savage the same way they do in normal content, so they attempt to bridge this via the Extreme fights and Unreal content, where the attack area gets flashed for a short time, but you have to rely more on the knowledge of what the attack is and what the visual queue is outside of orange flashy floor markings.

This would work fine... if EX fights were not optional content that could be skipped and people had to clear them to continue in the savage tier, but because they are there is a gap between savage and normal content. Since the skill floor got raised by greatly simplifying the abilities that players use on characters it also means that EX fights become more trivial and now the new baseline is the base savage tier, which lacks the visual transition that the EX fights were supposed to originally provide.

The other issue is the crazy amount of ramping that happens in difficulty going from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fights in savage. The game design team can't do anything about social issues or problems with finding groups, but content like savage should be doable in about two and a half months to clear for a group going at least 3 days a week. Going from PF that definitely did not happen, with many groups getting completely walled on p3s for a month at least. A lot of this is due to the reliance of the fights on completely removing certain design elements meant to support players in learning, and the other half is from using mechanics that actively punish players far too harshly for failure. Yes, the fight should only be completed if people can stay alive through it while keeping dps up, but no one can progress on a fight if the fight ends with one person dying to a mechanic only 5 minutes into a fight, since no one can see the later mechanics to even begin learning the fight.

As a person who is leading a static and learning this content, savage would be completely impossible for 90% of the players doing savage without having streamers and other folks with far more time writing out lesson plans, taking notes, and doing all the same tasks as a paid instructor at an educational institution.

Also going to point out that having rewards that are effectively upgraded versions of the normal raid gear creates the sense that savage is a progression of the normal raids, which it is not. If savage mode is supposed to be a mode for those that want a challenge, why would you want to have people who are interested in completion go out of their way to do it, considering that the matching weapon for the armor set is only available in the savage version?

[Issaella]

I have to ask: are you really concerned about the difficulty increase from Ex to Savage or are you concerned that PF will hold you back because you deem it too unreliable for you to make progress?

It it that PF is so unreliable I don't think there is much if any chance of completing it at all even if I can manage the mechanics because I then have to find a group of 7 other people who can perform at that level. The likelihood of achieving that with random assemblages of people from PF seems unlikely to the extreme. Especially when I've never even touched Savage content before.

Best if you are your party leader, you create the party and set x standard whether is be prog for a certain mechanic or a clear group or what ever. If some one it holding you back simply replace them.

Seem my above point. I have zero experience in Savage content. How would I possibly have enough knowledge/experience to lead a prog party? Let alone one that has any chance of completion?

Also going to point out that having rewards that are effectively upgraded versions of the normal raid gear creates the sense that savage is a progression of the normal raids, which it is not. If savage mode is supposed to be a mode for those that want a challenge, why would you want to have people who are interested in completion go out of their way to do it, considering that the matching weapon for the armor set is only available in the savage version?

This is essentially the only reason I'm even interested in doing it, there are two skins in p2s I want the dyeable versions of, that's it. And the only way to get them is to slam my head against a wall for untold hours with slim hope of even getting a clear let along getting lucky enough for a coffer or 6/12 clears for tokens. You are putting two disparate groups together with vastly different skills and motivation into the same content with no other way to obtain the rewards. I remember reading another thread a while back with a statement related to chasing a carrot on a stick only a lot of people will throw away hours and hours and never get any kind of reward (carrot) at all. And by gating the dyeable gear behind Savages the design is telling you "hey you got normal down now move to savage".

The other issue is the crazy amount of ramping that happens in difficulty going from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fights in savage. The game design team can't do anything about social issues or problems with finding groups, but content like savage should be doable in about two and a half months to clear for a group going at least 3 days a week. Going from PF that definitely did not happen... Yes, the fight should only be completed if people can stay alive through it while keeping dps up, but no one can progress on a fight if the fight ends with one person dying to a mechanic only 5 minutes into a fight, since no one can see the later mechanics to even begin learning the fight.

And this is the point I and other have been making in this whole thread that a lot of people don't seem to grasp. If you have zero experience with Savage then the difficulty is so high above any previous content as to feel like there is no starting point that will eventually lead to completion. And there is no gradual lessening of difficulty over the life of the current tier that would conceivably allow people who are behind/late to start to catch up. You are stuck starting at the beginning with only other people who are similarly behind/less experienced to bash your head against a wall until the next tier comes out and there is no one doing the content at all.

[KariTheFox]

Seem my above point. I have zero experience in Savage content. How would I possibly have enough knowledge/experience to lead a prog party? Let alone one that has any chance of completion?

Okay, here's what you do. Make a learning/prog PF, and write down the specific mechanic or phase you want to work on - and then also write "0-1 chest, experienced players welcome", and make sure to uncheck the "Weekly Reward Unclaimed" box when you make the PF. Now the player pool that can join the PF won't just be people who haven't cleared the fight yet, but also experienced raiders who are bored and happy to teach/help learn a fight.

And this is the point I and other have been making in this whole thread that a lot of people don't seem to grasp. If you have zero experience with Savage then the difficulty is so high above any previous content as to feel like there is no starting point that will eventually lead to completion. And there is no gradual lessening of difficulty over the life of the current tier that would conceivably allow people who are behind/late to start to catch up. You are stuck starting at the beginning with only other people who are similarly behind/less experienced to bash your head against a wall until the next tier comes out and there is no one doing the content at all.

It's true that the curve is a bit wonky in places (though I think the step from Hydaelyn EX to P1S is actually pretty smooth), nobody starts out being experienced with savage content. The only way to learn the fights is to practice them until you're familiar with them. Even in a group that is doing poorly, you can make sure to focus on yourself and your own performance. Everyone except you died to one mechanic? Try to stay alive long enough to see the next one and execute whatever it needs of you.

[Issaella]

It's true that the curve is a bit wonky in places (though I think the step from Hydaelyn EX to P1S is actually pretty smooth), nobody starts out being experienced with savage content.

Literally anyone who has done any previous Savage content before is lightyears ahead of people just starting. This is where the problem/disconnect fundamentally lies IMO. Not only do you need to wrap your brain around the mechanics of a specific raid boss you first have to wrap your brain around how Savages in general work and how completely unforgiving they are to even a single mistake. All this with no starting point of knowledge and no method of gaining it except constant and repeated failure. You can't lower the learning curve with gear. You can't lower it with addons without risking your account. You can't lower it really with more experienced player because you have no frame of reference to build on. Even joining a Savage prog you are expected to have a baseline of knowledge and experience that there is really no way to obtain without having done Savage before. Anyone who is trying to get into Savage content now is the weakest link in any prog party, period.

Honestly, I don't begrudge people just starting Savage the crutch that some of those addons provide, at least it would give a frame of reference and a baseline of competence that might make them more confident moving forward. I sometimes feel it would be a lot easier to just use them for the clear, get what I want, and then be done with it so I can go back to doing other things. But alas, I'm not risking my 4k+ hours of progress on a arbitrarily enforced ToS violation.