The difficulty curve in the game has... problems...

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

It just needs dedication and the will to actually overcome something.

I do like to train and overcome fights, but...

If someone wants to use third party tools, not just parsers, but also auto-combos and whatnot, why should I care ? I know, I know, SE does now, and that may be for the best, but why would you care about what other peoples are doing to get something they want ? The fights I overcame and the rewards I got do not get diminished by them.

[Ranaku]

I do like to train and overcome fights, but...

If someone wants to use third party tools, not just parsers, but also auto-combos and whatnot, why should I care ? I know, I know, SE does now, and that may be for the best, but why would you care about what other peoples are doing to get something they want ? The fights I overcame and the rewards I got do not get diminished by them.

Idk why you should care but just for example, why should other athletes care if the other competing athletes are on steroids and winning all the medals? I know that analogy doesn't work exactly since players here aren't competing directly against each other but it still devalues the achievement overall, for example when all players just buy their way through Ultimate it makes the status symbol of your weapon less worth it in the eyes of others. Yes for you that might not be a big problem cause you got your personal value out of the fight and the reward for yourself but others do want to show off what they achieved and furthermore this is what the devs envisioned. They didn't created Ultimate etc. so people can just cheat their way through it, it's just disrespectful. It's like someone building a fun maze for you and you just decide to go around it.

But i also think people have to differentiate between the different tools. I personally think damage meters are alright cause self improvement is important and lets be honest the training dummy doesn't deliver any data that is worth it. On the other hand tools that basically tell you what the boss is casting next or where you have to stand etc. is blatantly cheating. One tool is to prepare to play good and the other one is so you don't have to play the game basically.

[Colt47]

Idk why you should care but just for example, why should other athletes care if the other competing athletes are on steroids and winning all the medals? I know that analogy doesn't work exactly since players here aren't competing directly against each other but it still devalues the achievement overall, for example when all players just buy their way through Ultimate it makes the status symbol of your weapon less worth it in the eyes of others. Yes for you that might not be a big problem cause you got your personal value out of the fight and the reward for yourself but others do want to show off what they achieved and furthermore this is what the devs envisioned. They didn't created Ultimate etc. so people can just cheat their way through it, it's just disrespectful. It's like someone building a fun maze for you and you just decide to go around it.

But i also think people have to differentiate between the different tools. I personally think damage meters are alright cause self improvement is important and lets be honest the training dummy doesn't deliver any data that is worth it. On the other hand tools that basically tell you what the boss is casting next or where you have to stand etc. is blatantly cheating. One tool is to prepare to play good and the other one is so you don't have to play the game basically.

The problem is the line drawn between accessible content and rewards vs trophy worthy events. FFXIV end game design is not at all built to properly deal with trophy / achievement style rewards in a professional way. The difficulty curve has no customization to it that is accessible from the players own end, which is one of the major reasons that people end up making ways to make the content easier.

And there is zero reason to not have tighter control over difficulty curve in end game content. The idea of having a slow gear ramp up until the next content patch to make content easier is dated and lazy design. If someone wants to down the savage content with 15% echo on from day one because they want to complete the content and go do other content they are releasing because they lack the time to deal with min-iLvL and pentameld, they should have the option to do so with a group. And if this makes savage overall easier to complete all the better because right now the savage experience deteriorates into the floor after the first month for progression. People clear content and then go on to do reclear groups with other people that clear content. And with the new class designs there are a lot more people trying to clear savage now than there was even in Shadowbringers.

There is not a single person on this forum who can say with a strait face that they have a "fun and enjoyable time" doing PF after the first wave of prog is over and everyone is now stuck on something like p3s because of fight design. Not to mention this applies for statics that can't get in more than two days in a week.

I mean, level sync the gear in savage and let people have a difficulty slider via echo. Problem solved. If people want to achieve clearing at the min-ilvl, they can go back and do it after learning how the fight works so the field is actually fair.

[Amarande]

And there is zero reason to not have tighter control over difficulty curve in end game content. The idea of having a slow gear ramp up until the next content patch to make content easier is dated and lazy design. If someone wants to down the savage content with 15% echo on from day one because they want to complete the content and go do other content they are releasing because they lack the time to deal with min-iLvL and pentameld, they should have the option to do so with a group. And if this makes savage overall easier to complete all the better because right now the savage experience deteriorates into the floor after the first month for progression. People clear content and then go on to do reclear groups with other people that clear content. And with the new class designs there are a lot more people trying to clear savage now than there was even in Shadowbringers.

There is not a single person on this forum who can say with a strait face that they have a "fun and enjoyable time" doing PF after the first wave of prog is over and everyone is now stuck on something like p3s because of fight design. Not to mention this applies for statics that can't get in more than two days in a week.

Yep, something on these lines is probably it, in spades.

A big reason people use things like mods and other means in order to expedite content clearing is not only a matter of skill, but because the pace the community expects of players these days is insane. I mean, ABSOLUTELY INSANE. Back in the day when I was caught up to current endgame and did not have Tuesdays off work I could swear I've seen EX trials where even by the time I got home from work on patch day, PF was dominated by Duty Complete Farm. (I should note at this juncture that XIV players are even more rigid about bending on experience demands in PUGs than WoW players are, despite all the complaints about WoW being "exclusive" ...)

Fall behind the vanguard and you might as well wait till next tier or even next XPAC (and then be basically forced to settle for unsynced).

So much this on statics too. For reasons I'm still trying to wrap around, XIV statics seem to depend on an inordinate amount of days per week to be considered viable, even though the tiers are ostensibly much shorter here ... WoW guilds routinely got away with a couple nights a week and would get to Ahead of the Curve or even Cutting Edge in a tier, meanwhile ...

On another point brought up, people feel they "need" do Savage because it can impact other content they might want to do. EX, especially (many people aren't really raiders but they'd love to do EX - which seems intended as casual-mid endgame? - for the mounts and pretty weapons) - while it's nowhere near as awful as the gear situation in WoW, I will often especially see odd patch launch days where you need (CAP - 5) ilvl to join a large percentage of the PFs for the new EX, meaning you HAVE to have Savage on farm to be that geared that soon ... and then that ties in with the "rush or dust" mentality the community seems to, again, adopt for anything at all difficult in this game (Baldesion Arsenal seems to have been the main exception honestly).

[Colt47]

Yep, something on these lines is probably it, in spades.

A big reason people use things like mods and other means in order to expedite content clearing is not only a matter of skill, but because the pace the community expects of players these days is insane. I mean, ABSOLUTELY INSANE. Back in the day when I was caught up to current endgame and did not have Tuesdays off work I could swear I've seen EX trials where even by the time I got home from work on patch day, PF was dominated by Duty Complete Farm. (I should note at this juncture that XIV players are even more rigid about bending on experience demands in PUGs than WoW players are, despite all the complaints about WoW being "exclusive" ...)

Fall behind the vanguard and you might as well wait till next tier or even next XPAC (and then be basically forced to settle for unsynced).

So much this on statics too. For reasons I'm still trying to wrap around, XIV statics seem to depend on an inordinate amount of days per week to be considered viable, even though the tiers are ostensibly much shorter here ... WoW guilds routinely got away with a couple nights a week and would get to Ahead of the Curve or even Cutting Edge in a tier, meanwhile ...

On another point brought up, people feel they "need" do Savage because it can impact other content they might want to do. EX, especially (many people aren't really raiders but they'd love to do EX - which seems intended as casual-mid endgame? - for the mounts and pretty weapons) - while it's nowhere near as awful as the gear situation in WoW, I will often especially see odd patch launch days where you need (CAP - 5) ilvl to join a large percentage of the PFs for the new EX, meaning you HAVE to have Savage on farm to be that geared that soon ... and then that ties in with the "rush or dust" mentality the community seems to, again, adopt for anything at all difficult in this game (Baldesion Arsenal seems to have been the main exception honestly).

Oh it's bad for people who lead statics as well. There is something to be said that people have to find the right pace and group for themselves to be happy, but there's also the factor of finding people who are available. After trying out the two days a week thing it became obvious that the longer someone has to spend clearing content, the more effort that is needed by the leader to keep the group running. It really does take a toll on folks and it's why so many people prefer blitzing content over steady progress.

[Kolsykol]

I do like to train and overcome fights, but...

If someone wants to use third party tools, not just parsers, but also auto-combos and whatnot, why should I care ? I know, I know, SE does now, and that may be for the best, but why would you care about what other peoples are doing to get something they want ? The fights I overcame and the rewards I got do not get diminished by them.

I think that most people feel like it compromises and minimizes their own accomplishments when others can do that.
It's the same with P2W too it's a very normal feeling that extends to other aspects of life too.
People don't like feeling as if others can overcome something with less effort than they had to put in.
I don't think you're in the norm here.

It also will become normal and expected if they allow it.
Even if people want challenging content people will still use and find stuff to minimize the challenge.
It's pretty contradictory but I think it's definitely true.
Even people who are good at Souls games will still often be drawn into using cheese and glitches it's almost like they're being compelled by an urge to do it even tho they have less fun doing it and feel like it's less rewarding.

And when I beat Elden Ring without cheese and abusing op spells, summons and weapons or glitches it did feel a bit shitty when I looked into it how completely braindead it was if you decide to use that.
People don't like feeling as if they've drastically nerfed themselves by not using something and it does kinda diminish your feeling of accomplishment when you can also just run in and spam left trigger with a summon to kill the hardest boss in the game.
I think it's fairly common to feel like it compromises it and makes it less exciting.
Saying that you beat a boss becomes less impressive then because it can mean anything from actually learning the boss and fighting it '' properly '' or it can mean running in and spamming left trigger.

I know some people really hate stuff like Elmo in P3S because of that, I think that's perhaps taking it a bit too far but I think most people feel this way on some level and in WoW it does seem like the majority of people really dislike the use of Addons and how it affects the game design but they still use it themselves.