The difficulty curve in the game has... problems...

[Rilifane]

snip

There is nothing to lead in any PF.
Creating a party doesn't mean you have to do call outs, answer questions, be ahead with mechanics, offer advice and corrections, provide macro or markers or anything of that sort. All it means is that you can set the requirements as you desire (ilvl, classes, other options, description) and have the option to kick someone if they don't perform according to the standards you set.
Many people creating a practice party in PF don't even have markers or a macro or any clue about what's going on. They just created the party, that's it. And nobody expects anything from them.
You just set it to "practice", uncheck "Duty Complete" and "Duty Complete (Weekly Reward Unclaimed)" as these two options prevent people without a clear from joining, add "helpers welcome" and "bring macro/ markers" if you don't have but want them and you're done.
Once you're confident with certain mechanics you add "from mechanic X onwards" next time you set up PF.

All these misconceptions you have come from a lack of experience but clinging to them won't help you. Why not believe people that are telling you otherwise from experience and be glad that it's not nearly as gloomy as you thought it to be and give it a go?
I created plenty of parties during my 1st tier in ShB, it's not complicated and nothing was expected from me because creating a party doesn't mean anything. And there are plenty of "7 other people" out there who perform the mechanics just fine.

And I agree with Kari that the difficulty curve from Hydaelyn (and Endsinger) Ex into p1s is really smooth. The biggest difference between those is that the dps check for p1s would be a bit tighter but this late into the tier almost everyone is at least 590 from augmented crafted and helpers are usually BiS. So not much to worry about on that front. There definitely IS a lessening of the difficulty throughout the tier, both through better gear and more helpers.

Right now you're the only one holding yourself back by stubbornly clinging to the belief that it's hopeless, that it's all pointless "bashing your head against a wall", unfair increase in difficulty and so on.
Not the game, not PF, not the difficulty, not the difficulty curve.

I get it, you're only after dyeable glam and seem upset that you have to tackle endgame raiding for it. But you are entirely capable of getting it. Yes, this late into the tier. In PF.
Is it worth it? That's your choice to make.

[LianaThorne]

Literally anyone who has done any previous Savage content before is lightyears ahead of people just starting. This is where the problem/disconnect fundamentally lies IMO. Not only do you need to wrap your brain around the mechanics of a specific raid boss you first have to wrap your brain around how Savages in general work and how completely unforgiving they are to even a single mistake. All this with no starting point of knowledge and no method of gaining it except constant and repeated failure. You can't lower the learning curve with gear. You can't lower it with addons without risking your account. You can't lower it really with more experienced player because you have no frame of reference to build on. Even joining a Savage prog you are expected to have a baseline of knowledge and experience that there is really no way to obtain without having done Savage before. Anyone who is trying to get into Savage content now is the weakest link in any prog party, period.

Honestly, I don't begrudge people just starting Savage the crutch that some of those addons provide, at least it would give a frame of reference and a baseline of competence that might make them more confident moving forward. I sometimes feel it would be a lot easier to just use them for the clear, get what I want, and then be done with it so I can go back to doing other things. But alas, I'm not risking my 4k+ hours of progress on a arbitrarily enforced ToS violation.

For someone who's never done savage you're talking a lot like you have.

You have people telling you it's possible and has been done. Let go of your fear and actually try it instead of holding on to a tight grip of assumptions. Fresh progs exist and even blind progs where knowledge of the fight prior isnt even required. Again, give it a try instead of arguing with people who have actually done it. Thanks.

[Issaella]

There is nothing to lead in any PF.
Creating a party doesn't mean you have to do call outs, answer questions, be ahead with mechanics, offer advice and corrections, provide macro or markers or anything of that sort. All it means is that you can set the requirements as you desire (ilvl, classes, other options, description) and have the option to kick someone if they don't perform according to the standards you set.
Many people creating a practice party in PF don't even have markers or a macro or any clue about what's going on. They just created the party, that's it. And nobody expects anything from them.
You just set it to "practice", uncheck "Duty Complete" and "Duty Complete (Weekly Reward Unclaimed)" as these two options prevent people without a clear from joining, add "helpers welcome" and "bring macro/ markers" if you don't have but want them and you're done.
Once you're confident with certain mechanics you add "from mechanic X onwards" next time you set up PF.

I'm going to be frank, why would anyone join a party like that? It would have zero chance of success or progressing at all? It's not only wrangling a group of cats, but it's essentially say "f' it let the cats run around and do whatever they want". If I were going to join a PF group for prog for p2s then I wouldn't touch a group like that with a ten foot pole. It would in no way assist me in gaining experience or knowledge. I would expect that someone leading a group would at least have some idea what is going on and how to help with issues beyond just hoping more experienced people can join and sort it out.

All these misconceptions you have come from a lack of experience but clinging to them won't help you. Why not believe people that are telling you otherwise from experience and be glad that it's not nearly as gloomy as you thought it to be and give it a go?
I created plenty of parties during my 1st tier in ShB, it's not complicated and nothing was expected from me because creating a party doesn't mean anything. And there are plenty of "7 other people" out there who perform the mechanics just fine.

My experience PuGing Unreal on my alt would beg to differ with you. Having it on farm on my main and then trying to PuG it exclusively in Duty Complete reclear/retell parties on my alt is frequently infuriating. And that is only in groups that everyone has ostensibly cleared the encounter before. That is really what I'm basing a lot of my trepidation on truthfully. If I can't even expect baseline competence from people that have cleared something not to make everything miserable/harder than it has to be, then what hope do I have for Savage? And I am by no means exempting myself, who has no experience at all. And compared to Unreal/Ex the margin for error might as well be zero.

[KariTheFox]

I'm going to be frank, why would anyone join a party like that?

Because, if you set it up to include people who have already gotten thier weekly clears, you will draw from experienced raiders who actually enjoy teaching the fights, probably cleared them all tuesday night, and are bored out of thier minds because their group isn't progging Ultimate that night.

I personally know a few highly skilled raiders who spend s lot of thier time teaching fights that they cleared week one, simply because they find it fun to teach people.

[Issaella]

Because, if you set it up to include people who have already gotten thier weekly clears, you will draw from experienced raiders who actually enjoy teaching the fights, probably cleared them all tuesday night, and are bored out of thier minds because their group isn't progging Ultimate that night.

I personally know a few highly skilled raiders who spend s lot of thier time teaching fights that they cleared week one, simply because they find it fun to teach people.

I guess this is another fundamental disconnect as to what PF is supposed to be in this game. Coming from WoW if you list a PuG raid you are expected to lead that raid. At the bare minimum you should have the experience to know most of the fight you are trying to PuG and tell people what they should be doing if needed. Listing something and then expecting others to pick up the slack feels extremely selfish to me and wouldn't have much chance of sucess in my experience. I would expect the same thing in any group that I would join, let alone volunteer to lead.

And as a side note, one of the things that absolutely kills me about Savage is that if you have people who are experienced then you are giving up half or all of your chance at a reward. The game literally penalizes you for including people in the group who have cleared. So you either have to eat pavement in hopes of getting a clear with similarly inexperienced people or call in assistance (if you even know anyone who can) and cut your chance of reward in half or lose it completely. What kind of sense is that?

[Colt47]

There is nothing to lead in any PF.
Creating a party doesn't mean you have to do call outs, answer questions, be ahead with mechanics, offer advice and corrections, provide macro or markers or anything of that sort. All it means is that you can set the requirements as you desire (ilvl, classes, other options, description) and have the option to kick someone if they don't perform according to the standards you set.
Many people creating a practice party in PF don't even have markers or a macro or any clue about what's going on. They just created the party, that's it. And nobody expects anything from them.

Who spent the time to set up the party in pf, save the necessary markers, goes through setting the strategy being used, puts the markers down to make sure everyone knows where they are standing before the first pull, sets up the expectation as to what is to be accomplished, and has to suffer when someone, not saying you, but maybe you, decides that you don't like the fact the group wiped twice one or two mechs before the one in the PF, and immediately leaves, having to put the entire party up again and having to repeat the process?

That's being a leader and showing willingness to organize and prepare a team. And yeah, you DO actually provide corrections and information when things go south, not break up and try again.

[game_enjoyer]

for me the issue wasn't (and still isn't) the difficulity involved in clearing ex/savage/ultimate fights. i'm confident if i had the desire to clear them i could. however, the requirements for me clearing them are gated behind terminology i have not/had not heard before, and also the patience of 7 other players. it takes me a lot longer to pick up mechanics than other players, i admit that. but as a result, i have been unable to find a group to clear with that has left me with the feeling that i should continue to clear. even with BiS as a reward, i have no desire to attempt savage or ultimate. it's far beyond what i want out of the game, simply because there is no middle ground. it feels like it's either dungeon running or raiding and let me tell u i have progressed past the point where dungeon running is enough to keep my attention. perhaps this is a personal problem, but i have also encountered many other people that say the same thing: the game is too difficult to parse when it comes to MMO terminology insofar as new players to the genre are concerned. it feels like if you are new to raiding you are at a disadvantage simply because things are unfamiliar to you.

[Issaella]

*snip*

I feel almost exactly the same way. I can faceroll Expert in 15min, maybe 20 with a first timer, there has been zero challenge since January. Same basically goes for the current Unreal, I cleared week 1 and had it on farm since then every week on two characters. But the level of knowledge expected to move into Savage for the first time is so far beyond that as to be completely inadequate or even know where to start. I can barely parse half the abbreviations in most PF groups and then the rest just say "usual PF strats" assuming everyone knows what those are. It's not just the terminology, but the sheer number of mechanics you have to learn to have even a chance at clearing a Savage when it's current without any previous knowledge or any stepping-stone difficulty is beyond daunting.

[Colt47]

I guess this is another fundamental disconnect as to what PF is supposed to be in this game. Coming from WoW if you list a PuG raid you are expected to lead that raid. At the bare minimum you should have the experience to know most of the fight you are trying to PuG and tell people what they should be doing if needed. Listing something and then expecting others to pick up the slack feels extremely selfish to me and wouldn't have much chance of sucess in my experience. I would expect the same thing in any group that I would join, let alone volunteer to lead.

And as a side note, one of the things that absolutely kills me about Savage is that if you have people who are experienced then you are giving up half or all of your chance at a reward. The game literally penalizes you for including people in the group who have cleared. So you either have to eat pavement in hopes of getting a clear with similarly inexperienced people or call in assistance (if you even know anyone who can) and cut your chance of reward in half or lose it completely. What kind of sense is that?

Yeah, this has been a problem for a while now. Obviously the dev team or the team lead over there doesn't think so but the way the loot system works contributes to the problems over on the NA servers at the very least. If you join a static for example you basically give your soul to that group and can't even help another group without stepping on the toes of both thanks to the system. If the loot was a personal lockout system things would improve immensely.

I don't remember even why they made the system the way they did or if they ever bothered to say anything about it, but I've assumed that they originally put it in place to discourage groups selling clears to others. It doesn't really do that and mostly just makes this a whole lot more frustrating and inflexible in terms of when and with whom people do savage with.

[Rilifane]

Who spent the time to set up the party in pf, save the necessary markers, goes through setting the strategy being used, puts the markers down to make sure everyone knows where they are standing before the first pull, sets up the expectation as to what is to be accomplished, and has to suffer when someone, not saying you, but maybe you, decides that you don't like the fact the group wiped twice one or two mechs before the one in the PF, and immediately leaves, having to put the entire party up again and having to repeat the process?

That's being a leader and showing willingness to organize and prepare a team. And yeah, you DO actually provide corrections and information when things go south, not break up and try again.

And where exactly did I say that someone should not provide corrections if they are knowledgeable enough about the fight to do it? Or to break up a party because things go south?

You confuse setting up a PF with leading a party.
Those two are not connected by default.
While many people that create a PF also happen to provide markers and a macro it is not a requirement because creating a party doesn't make you into the leader in the sense of guiding everyone and providing help. By that logic everyone who is still at prog stage would need to hope for someone who has already cleared to create a practice party to join - which is not the case. Everyone is free to create a party, state what they want to practice and whether they need markers/ macro or not.
If a helper joins, they are most likely the most experienced and will also most likely 'lead' the party or rather provide corrections. They will also have markers, a macro or correct something about what other people brought if they see an issue with that - and all that is entirely possible without having created the party.

Setting up a PF, writing "practice from start, please bring markers & macro. helpers welcome" is a very common description and these parties are perfectly capable of making good progress, with or without helpers.
It also quite common for someone that is not the party leader to post a macro or place markers.
It is, again, quite common for someone not being the party leader to correct strats someone, party leader or not, suggested.
So I stand by it: you are not automatically leading a party simply because you set up PF. The person setting up PF decides what is going to be practiced and has the option to kick people if they think they're holding the party back or cause drama - and that is all that comes with setting up a PF. Nothing more, nothing less.