The difficulty curve in the game has... problems...

[Colt47]

Okay, enough already with the posts about the modding community and what not making tools to take down the high end content. Yes, WoW development ended up starting to build fights around the existence of these tools and it caused a ton of problems, but those tools are going to exist one way or another and SE isn't going to plant a program on your PC to scour it for third party tools, ever.

The whole reason that mods exist is to solve a difficulty curve problem that plagues these kind of games. If someone sticks a fancy reward that is unique and desirable to multiple different kinds of players at the end of some hard content that is meant for only a specific kind of player, people will make tools to circumvent the difficulty of the content.

The question that the devs should be asking themselves is this: Why are these other kinds of players that do not want hardship doing content that involves taking excessive amounts of time to complete, often at the sacrifice of newer content, for excessive numbers of weeks? This definitely didn't happen as often during Stormblood, but it is obvious that the dumbing down of jobs created a rather huge swath of middle ground that was not properly explored in the current content tier.

And FYI, I'm not even talking specifically about Dragonsong. This happens in savage as well with a lot of groups and it doesn't get publicized.

[Catwho]

It is entirely possible to clear extreme fights and savage fights without third party tools or any UI add ons, because I've done it. Unless you count a notepad text file on my second monitor as a third party tool, which I don't because a PS4/PS5 user can also have a sheet of paper with stuff written down next to their screen.

I honestly think this is one advantage older players have over younger ones. I've played MMOs for 20 years, I've learned to live with crappy UI and limited information for decades. I learned to count to 30 on bard when that was my main in XIV, just like I learned to count to 30 on red mage back in FFXI.

Would I like some improvements? Absolutely. I could not make my debuff button big enough when I was progging P1S. I'm on a friggin 2K monitor and even the largest debuff bar setting is about half the size of what I would like. I had to learn to stare at the spot where I moved it for Fourfold Chains as the cast went off so I would know immediately where to run. It just took a bit more practice.

[Packetdancer]

Would I like some improvements? Absolutely. I could not make my debuff button big enough when I was progging P1S. I'm on a friggin 2K monitor and even the largest debuff bar setting is about half the size of what I would like. I had to learn to stare at the spot where I moved it for Fourfold Chains as the cast went off so I would know immediately where to run. It just took a bit more practice.

I swear, no UI change I've made in this game has done more to ease annoyance in savage raiding for me than breaking my buff/debuff bar into Buffs, Debuffs, and Persistent Status. (No mod required for this, just mucking around deep enough in the normal HUD layout tools.) I leave persistent state -- FC buffs, food buffs, etc. -- down at the bottom of the screen, and then stacked buffs and debuffs on top of each other directly above the party list, and made them a bit larger. It was E12S phase 2's Relativity mechanics that drove me to do it, but I've never regretted it since; it's been nice to have this tier as well, both back in P1S and for P4S phase 2 Curtain Call timers.

ANYWAY... I have little use for mods that tell me how to play the game (as it seems you also feel). I have a great deal of hypothetical use for mods that make the UI a little less dumb about things. (Look, I have opinions on UX. They are sometimes very strongly held opinions.)

If I have the boss as a focus target, I don't need to see the first like... 5 buffs/debuffs from everyone, I'd probably like to see just the ones I put there. I likely don't care about how long is left on the SAM's Higanbana if I'm the healer... but I might about my own Dia or Eukrasian Dosis. Yes, you can tell the game to only show the things you applied on the main target, but I actually do want things there, so that -- for instance -- I can see when the NIN has Mugged the target even if I'm not the NIN. Or see which Condensed Libra another BLU has applied if I'm doing BLU duties. Etc.

(While on the subject of the target UI, I would also like a way to highlight which buffs or debuffs are mine on a target while showing the rest. But that's really more a nice-to-have in like alliance raids or something, where you wonder "Is one of those two Higanbana mine? We do have four SAMs in here...")

The party list can get really crowded with buffs/debuffs, especially in some fights. I probably don't care whether the RDM is Verfire Ready, nor do I care if the BLM's got Thundercloud for their next Thunder spell. Conversely, as a healer, I might want to see whether the Regen I put on the tank is still there. Or whether or not everyone in the party actually got that Kerachole or Medica II which I tossed out there. Wouldn't it be nice to have a list of "unless this buff is mine, I don't care whether it's there or not" status effects which just get omitted from the party list, so that the ones you do care about don't potentially get pushed off the side and vanish? I sure think so!

Is it dumb that you can only store five waymark presets for all the instances in the game? It absolutely is, considering the waymark presets are stored client-side rather than on the server! And you can only use a preset in the instance it goes with, so why can't I have several sets? I'd sure like for those five marker presets to be duty-specific, or to be able to swap them in and out! Or something so that, for instance, I can have waymarks for the current raid tier and for all the current extreme trials; I love to help folks in my FC who want to try things for the first time, but it's really annoying if I no longer have marks for, say, Zodiark EX because I didn't have space!

(I'll concede that the waymarks are backed up to the server when you manually archive your settings, so if someone had 11 billion waymarks that could actually be a problem for servers. But if it only backed up your current five while also letting you swap those five in and out for others you had saved locally, even just that would still be a massive improvement.)

I'd really, really love it if I had a "Greed All" or "Pass All" button in loot windows. I'd love it even more if I could tickybox a thing that said "Apply to all loot for this duty." before clicking one of those, so that I could tickybox it at the beginning of Stone Vigil or Dzemael Darkhold and click "Pass All" and then just ignore loot for the rest of that dungeon run. Because the chances I actually want something from Halatali or Haukke Manor when all my jobs are at level 80+ are pretty close to absolute zero, let me tell you!

Etc.

None of those are meaningful changes in terms of actual gameplay mechanics; they're just QoL changes that make existing UX better. (Or at least, give options for behavior I think is better.) I can't speak for anyone else, but that -- UX improvements for QoL -- is honestly all that I'd use mods for, and if there were mods that gave me those specific UX tweaks... then I'd be really dang tempted to look at mods.

So as much as I think the current fuss over UI modifications is kinda overblown, I'm choosing to take SQEX's statement that they're going to look at popular UI modifications and maybe add them to the game as a net positive, because -- as someone who plays on both PC and Playstation 5 -- I would really like it if I could have those sort of improvements natively in the game, and thus available on both platforms (and without having to ponder breaking ToS to get them).

[Ranaku]

Nope, you are entirely wrong. The reason why these plugins exist isn't cause the difficulty is too hard. That is like saying weight loss is hard that's why people get their body fat removed artificially. People are lazy and don't want to learn when they can have something for less work and free. That is common all over the world and has nothing to do with difficulty curves but rather people cheating their way through life cause growing their e-boners is more important than growing their skills.

It just needs dedication and the will to actually overcome something.

[Colt47]

Nope, you are entirely wrong. The reason why these plugins exist isn't cause the difficulty is too hard. That is like saying weight loss is hard that's why people get their body fat removed artificially. People are lazy and don't want to learn when they can have something for less work and free. That is common all over the world and has nothing to do with difficulty curves but rather people cheating their way through life cause growing their e-boners is more important than growing their skills.

It just needs dedication and the will to actually overcome something.

This is absolutely false. Will and dedication is important but what is needed to get through content is will, dedication, and proper Leadership / teamwork.

Leadership and guidance is something that is missing from savage that is provided in-game during normal content through visual queues in the fights, which in combination with zero enrage timers enables that content to be playable by just about all people who play this game. But the issue is that the second someone steps into doing savage or extreme trials, the guidance is taken away and enrage timers are applied. Mods that were developed in World of Warcraft were designed to fill the gap of missing guidance and enabled groups with poor leadership and learning skills to tackle content they otherwise would be unable to handle, which then lead to an arms race between the devs and the community at large where they started making content to meet some arbitrary difficulty wall for player retention.

[UkcsAlias]

This is absolutely false. Will and dedication is important but what is needed to get through content is will, dedication, and proper Leadership / teamwork.

And plain skill and reflexes. Being able to remember a lot of things is still a skill, and reflexes to identify things also is. And something that especialy at diffirent stuff is important (knowing the animations related to mechanics).

There is always a point at which you simply cannot perform the task anymore, and this is fine. Even in PvE content, you are not required to finish everything! Some things are made to be overly difficult. And often when it isnt, players make their own challenges: speedruns.

A streamer doesnt even have to complete such content, that is not necessarily the primary task, most streamers are only streamers to entertain. And entertainment can be done in several ways.

[Magikazam]

This is absolutely false. Will and dedication is important but what is needed to get through content is will, dedication, and proper Leadership / teamwork.

Leadership and guidance is something that is missing from savage that is provided in-game during normal content through visual queues in the fights, which in combination with zero enrage timers enables that content to be playable by just about all people who play this game. But the issue is that the second someone steps into doing savage or extreme trials, the guidance is taken away and enrage timers are applied. Mods that were developed in World of Warcraft were designed to fill the gap of missing guidance and enabled groups with poor leadership and learning skills to tackle content they otherwise would be unable to handle, which then lead to an arms race between the devs and the community at large where they started making content to meet some arbitrary difficulty wall for player retention.

The mods' arms race you talk about only happened in WoD when by the last raid tier, it was required to have addons due to how complex the fight had become, they then decided to simplify future fights while at the same time reducing what people could do with add-ons. On top of that, WoW don't have the same kind of ''normal'' mode FFXIV have. You simply need to know what skill does and you can't expect some sort of communication and leadership in PUG group. People don't want to hop on coms with stranger just so they can clear Shiva Extreme or something of the like.

[Colt47]

The mods' arms race you talk about only happened in WoD when by the last raid tier, it was required to have addons due to how complex the fight had become, they then decided to simplify future fights while at the same time reducing what people could do with add-ons. On top of that, WoW don't have the same kind of ''normal'' mode FFXIV have. You simply need to know what skill does and you can't expect some sort of communication and leadership in PUG group. People don't want to hop on coms with stranger just so they can clear Shiva Extreme or something of the like.

Well, yes that is the point. On NA servers the lack of leadership in PF content is a constant problem and people don't want to hop into communications if they don't need to for all sorts of reasons, which is why statics ended up being formed. However, that's not the problem with the difficulty curve. The difficulty curve is related to hidden game design, where developers introduce mechanics that are meant to make up for the fact that we as players do not possess all of our senses in the game. The reason they flash the attack zones for enemies is because we don't have the ability to predict where an attack can land based purely on the enemy, and due to flashy effects and visuals from our own attacks, basing the direction and nature of attacks on what the enemy is doing via motion is nearly impossible, hence why many bosses get "bigger" than the player characters since they have to be seen over spell effects and other characters.

This leads to the second visual clue which is applying a name to an ability and a cast bar where we have time to look at the name of the ability. Once the attack goes off, you then mentally connect the dots to the name of the ability and the effect it has on the arena.

Now in the game itself, they obviously don't show the area of effect anymore in savage the same way they do in normal content, so they attempt to bridge this via the Extreme fights and Unreal content, where the attack area gets flashed for a short time, but you have to rely more on the knowledge of what the attack is and what the visual queue is outside of orange flashy floor markings.

This would work fine... if EX fights were not optional content that could be skipped and people had to clear them to continue in the savage tier, but because they are there is a gap between savage and normal content. Since the skill floor got raised by greatly simplifying the abilities that players use on characters it also means that EX fights become more trivial and now the new baseline is the base savage tier, which lacks the visual transition that the EX fights were supposed to originally provide.

The other issue is the crazy amount of ramping that happens in difficulty going from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fights in savage. The game design team can't do anything about social issues or problems with finding groups, but content like savage should be doable in about two and a half months to clear for a group going at least 3 days a week. Going from PF that definitely did not happen, with many groups getting completely walled on p3s for a month at least. A lot of this is due to the reliance of the fights on completely removing certain design elements meant to support players in learning, and the other half is from using mechanics that actively punish players far too harshly for failure. Yes, the fight should only be completed if people can stay alive through it while keeping dps up, but no one can progress on a fight if the fight ends with one person dying to a mechanic only 5 minutes into a fight, since no one can see the later mechanics to even begin learning the fight.

As a person who is leading a static and learning this content, savage would be completely impossible for 90% of the players doing savage without having streamers and other folks with far more time writing out lesson plans, taking notes, and doing all the same tasks as a paid instructor at an educational institution.

Also going to point out that having rewards that are effectively upgraded versions of the normal raid gear creates the sense that savage is a progression of the normal raids, which it is not. If savage mode is supposed to be a mode for those that want a challenge, why would you want to have people who are interested in completion go out of their way to do it, considering that the matching weapon for the armor set is only available in the savage version?

[Issaella]

I have to ask: are you really concerned about the difficulty increase from Ex to Savage or are you concerned that PF will hold you back because you deem it too unreliable for you to make progress?

It it that PF is so unreliable I don't think there is much if any chance of completing it at all even if I can manage the mechanics because I then have to find a group of 7 other people who can perform at that level. The likelihood of achieving that with random assemblages of people from PF seems unlikely to the extreme. Especially when I've never even touched Savage content before.

Best if you are your party leader, you create the party and set x standard whether is be prog for a certain mechanic or a clear group or what ever. If some one it holding you back simply replace them.

Seem my above point. I have zero experience in Savage content. How would I possibly have enough knowledge/experience to lead a prog party? Let alone one that has any chance of completion?

Also going to point out that having rewards that are effectively upgraded versions of the normal raid gear creates the sense that savage is a progression of the normal raids, which it is not. If savage mode is supposed to be a mode for those that want a challenge, why would you want to have people who are interested in completion go out of their way to do it, considering that the matching weapon for the armor set is only available in the savage version?

This is essentially the only reason I'm even interested in doing it, there are two skins in p2s I want the dyeable versions of, that's it. And the only way to get them is to slam my head against a wall for untold hours with slim hope of even getting a clear let along getting lucky enough for a coffer or 6/12 clears for tokens. You are putting two disparate groups together with vastly different skills and motivation into the same content with no other way to obtain the rewards. I remember reading another thread a while back with a statement related to chasing a carrot on a stick only a lot of people will throw away hours and hours and never get any kind of reward (carrot) at all. And by gating the dyeable gear behind Savages the design is telling you "hey you got normal down now move to savage".

The other issue is the crazy amount of ramping that happens in difficulty going from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fights in savage. The game design team can't do anything about social issues or problems with finding groups, but content like savage should be doable in about two and a half months to clear for a group going at least 3 days a week. Going from PF that definitely did not happen... Yes, the fight should only be completed if people can stay alive through it while keeping dps up, but no one can progress on a fight if the fight ends with one person dying to a mechanic only 5 minutes into a fight, since no one can see the later mechanics to even begin learning the fight.

And this is the point I and other have been making in this whole thread that a lot of people don't seem to grasp. If you have zero experience with Savage then the difficulty is so high above any previous content as to feel like there is no starting point that will eventually lead to completion. And there is no gradual lessening of difficulty over the life of the current tier that would conceivably allow people who are behind/late to start to catch up. You are stuck starting at the beginning with only other people who are similarly behind/less experienced to bash your head against a wall until the next tier comes out and there is no one doing the content at all.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

It just needs dedication and the will to actually overcome something.

I do like to train and overcome fights, but...

If someone wants to use third party tools, not just parsers, but also auto-combos and whatnot, why should I care ? I know, I know, SE does now, and that may be for the best, but why would you care about what other peoples are doing to get something they want ? The fights I overcame and the rewards I got do not get diminished by them.